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-   -   The aiming point concept can create off plane motion, lss pwer, cbface algnmnt issues (http://www.lynnblakegolf.com/forum/showthread.php?t=8669)

O.B.Left 05-11-2012 12:42 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by HungryBear (Post 91410)
Question- What is the "aiming point concept" trying to "adjust" in my alignments? ie. is it impact hand location for the various clubs?, release hand location for the various clubs and release types? I am trying to understand the "what and why" and fit it in.

I concur with Mikes response above .

Impact hand location is another concept , related perhaps but different. Nothing wrong with monitoring that procedurally although it could be argued that those who think that is one and the same as the aiming point procedure are missing out on what Homers aiming point procedure really was.

The Aiming Point can be adjusted fore and aft of the ball along the Delivery Line of the Clubhead (not the plane line for balls back of low point) . If for example a player tends to leave his long levered driver shots to the right , moving the Aiming Point aft (back towards the right foot) of the ball a few inches will trick him or her into releasing earlier or perhaps more forcefully . This aids in the squaring of the face by impact. Ones Aiming Point can therefore change on a day by day basis.

Thats my take on it anyways. The other benefit is that it adds down and out to the stroke , to ones intentions. A throwing like motion at the aiming point precludes the common malady of swinging forward towards the target, Steering.

MizunoJoe 05-11-2012 02:56 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mike O (Post 91418)
Joe,
You'd need to provide a different example or fully explain how you are using the same principle I'm talking about - moving the hands somewhere. I don't see the apples to apples relationship for someone pulling a gun out of a holster and pointing it at a target without lining it up with their eyes.
Thanks

It is an exact analogy - when they draw and fire, they've aimed the gun at the target below the eye line. In the golf stroke, the Aiming Point is the target for the initial direction of thrust of PP#3(analogous to the bullet), also below the eye line. But, unlike the bullet, PP#3 does not continue toward the Aiming Point after the initial move(trigger pull) from the Top, because the hand path starts curving, unlike the ideal conceptual hand paths in Ch 9, in spite of a straight line effort. Once the right shoulder initially drives PP#3 toward the Aiming Point, forget about it, but continue to trace the Plane Line with PP#3. The trouble happens when the player continues to try to make the hands go toward the Aiming Point by manipulation, all the way to Impact, causing the hands to be moving down and out at Impact, instead of moving up and in as they should.

innercityteacher 05-11-2012 04:49 PM

Houston we have a delightful problem!
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by O.B.Left (Post 91419)
I concur with Mikes response above .

Impact hand location is another concept , related perhaps but different. Nothing wrong with monitoring that procedurally although it could be argued that those who think that is one and the same as the aiming point procedure are missing out on what Homers aiming point procedure really was.

The Aiming Point can be adjusted fore and aft of the ball along the Delivery Line of the Clubhead (not the plane line for balls back of low point) . If for example a player tends to leave his long levered driver shots to the right , moving the Aiming Point aft (back towards the right foot) of the ball a few inches will trick him or her into releasing earlier or perhaps more forcefully . This aids in the squaring of the face by impact. Ones Aiming Point can therefore change on a day by day basis.

Thats my take on it anyways. The other benefit is that it adds down and out to the stroke , to ones intentions. A throwing like motion at the aiming point precludes the common malady of swinging forward towards the target, Steering.

Ok, I feel like an idiot, again! :rolleyes:

It wasn't until trying the Aiming Point concept the other evening that I realized I had never really dragged PP # 3 anywhere on purpose, ever, not to the mall, not to McD's, not to Minnesota or Wisconsin! :eh:

Playing with the metal broomstick one of my students was nice enough to break for me and I felt it!!! No, not Agina, but PP # 3! We had an old cardboard box filled with trash I had marked the outside of with the stick before. Ehmm, suddenly, I cut it in half with a controlled Ax-handle drive thinking only of planting the left heel with a pre-turned hip and pulling the EA loaded PP # 3 to the box! :laughing1

I came home and alternately made my impact bag jump up and straight back with my Angle Hinge and spin left with my Horizontal Hinge!

The problem? I flexed the clubs on every shot!!!! And I did it on purpose!!!! :laughing9 :laughing9

DRAG THE MOP, DRAG THE DOG, DRAG PP # 3 TO THE AIMING POINT!

"Deliberate, positive and heavy!"


http://youtu.be/1y2fH0ooCoQ

http://youtu.be/vVws0CQqTDc


Thanks guys! The challenge will be to play with the soft shafts I Have tomorrow! My ball is about to "act a whole lot different!"

ICT

Mike O 05-11-2012 07:31 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by MizunoJoe (Post 91429)
It is an exact analogy - when they draw and fire, they've aimed the gun at the target below the eye line. In the golf stroke, the Aiming Point is the target for the initial direction of thrust of PP#3(analogous to the bullet), also below the eye line. But, unlike the bullet, PP#3 does not continue toward the Aiming Point after the initial move(trigger pull) from the Top, because the hand path starts curving, unlike the ideal conceptual hand paths in Ch 9, in spite of a straight line effort. Once the right shoulder initially drives PP#3 toward the Aiming Point, forget about it, but continue to trace the Plane Line with PP#3. The trouble happens when the player continues to try to make the hands go toward the Aiming Point by manipulation, all the way to Impact, causing the hands to be moving down and out at Impact, instead of moving up and in as they should.

Joe,
I'll try this one more time and see if we can communicate - however I don't think it's going to work between you and I.

[b][i]It is an exact analogy - when they draw and fire, they've aimed the gun at the target below the eye line. In the golf stroke, the Aiming Point is the target for the initial direction of thrust of PP#3(analogous to the bullet), also below the eye line.
I see the similarity here - however my intitial post was covering the context of what might happen if you use the aiming point concept and have the perception of continually driving the hands towards the aiming point and how that would move the hands above the plane. Alternatively, in order to create an on-plane motion and using the aiming point concept you'd need to pick something well inside the plane line. So it's much more than just an aiming issue. Your gunshot example has the aiming issue but doesn't really address the brain/movement issues that was essential to my post.

But, unlike the bullet, PP#3 does not continue toward the Aiming Point after the initial move(trigger pull) from the Top
Thrust effort and where PP#3 would move are two separate things - to clarify - even from the top PP#3 doesn't move towards the aiming point - due to shoulders uncoil etc.

But, unlike the bullet, PP#3 does not continue toward the Aiming Point after the initial move(trigger pull) from the Top, because the hand path starts curving, unlike the ideal conceptual hand paths in Ch 9, in spite of a straight line effort. Right - curving from a face on viewpoint. However, I still have an issue with comparing the moving bullet from the effort of the hands to continue towards an object and not actually be moving towards that object (aiming point) becuase of the brain's perspective.

Once the right shoulder initially drives PP#3 toward the Aiming Point, forget about it, but continue to trace the Plane Line with PP#3.
Again, the PP#3 isn't moving towards the aiming point from the top. The player's effort may be to move it towards the aiming point but the hands move back and away not directly on a straight line to the aiming point. (for most professional full swings).

When you say forget about it after the initial drive - well then we are no longer talking about the Golfing Machine concept of aiming point - and that is the discussion here.

The trouble happens when the player continues to try to make the hands go toward the Aiming Point by manipulation, all the way to Impact, causing the hands to be moving down and out at Impact, instead of moving up and in as they should
Your not addressing my point here - my post isn't about where the hands hit their lowpoint - it was about how using the aiming point concept could cause the hands to move above the original plane on the downswing.

I was under the impression that you dis-agreed with my idea that if have the perception (intent) of thrusting to the aiming point throughout the downswing - i.e. the Golfing Machine aiming point concept - that your hands would move above plane. However, from your posts so far I haven't been able to understand why you dis-agree with that.

HungryBear 05-12-2012 08:24 AM

Think I got it!!
 
Thanks Mike O and OB. I think I have a much better grasp on the Aiming Point Concept.
One more part. 7-23 Third paragraph, Reads, "The straight line path is a simpler procedure than the Angled Line Path....The former" (straight line path ) " can have a steeper-than-normal Elbow Plane COMPENSATED" (my emphasis) "with a reaching-out ".. and a grip shift. Is this a recognition by HK of the "problems" that Mike O started the thread on?

I have an Angled Line question BUT I will start a new thread below...

HB

Mike O 05-12-2012 11:24 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by MizunoJoe (Post 91429)
It is an exact analogy - when they draw and fire, they've aimed the gun at the target below the eye line. In the golf stroke, the Aiming Point is the target for the initial direction of thrust of PP#3(analogous to the bullet), also below the eye line.

Just for clarification - let me describe the exact analogy to the problem I was describing in my initial post where the hands don't go where you want them to go - give the brain's perspective i.e. above plane viewpoint.

To clarify - the essential element is how to control where your hands move.

If you have a gun target say 8 feet away (roughly the same distance from your eyes to the ball in the golf swing) at eye height. Let's assume you pull your gun from the holster at your side and the ideal technique is to bring your gun on a plane that goes directly from your holster to the target (that's the on-plane golf motion). So you start to thrust towards that gun target while at all times keeping you eye on the target (the ball in golf), finally the gun is in line with your view of the target. This may give you the sense/feeling that you took it on the correct line however if we draw a line from your holster to where your gun is at the end of your 3 foot arm - the actual angle it took was not from the holster to the target 8 feet away. If we wanted to use that procedure and have the hand with the gun move on a line from the holster to the gun target 8 feet away, you would need to pick a alternative target below the gun target that would coincide with the distance of three feet out - that would put you on that proper line. So is the aiming point concept still usable Whip? Sure - but it takes a simple geometry calculation to verify it's location in order to achieve the actual ideal movement.

Mike O 05-13-2012 01:05 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by HungryBear (Post 91444)
Thanks Mike O and OB. I think I have a much better grasp on the Aiming Point Concept.
One more part. 7-23 Third paragraph, Reads, "The straight line path is a simpler procedure than the Angled Line Path....The former" (straight line path ) " can have a steeper-than-normal Elbow Plane COMPENSATED" (my emphasis) "with a reaching-out ".. and a grip shift. Is this a recognition by HK of the "problems" that Mike O started the thread on?
HB

No, He's just saying that the low hands address location and making plane angle shifts - rising above that low plane on the backswing and then dropping back down to it on the downswing - creating the angled line path - is more complicated.

For the straight line path - which requires a single plane downswing -you can't start with a true elbow plane - too flat - so you need to have the shaft raised up when you take your grip- to coincide with the proper downswing (let's say backswing also to keep this simple). Since you are according to the Golfing Machine always taking your grip with a level left wrist - that tends to put the club more in the palm of the hand.

Probably a poor word choice in regards to "Compensated" - as it's not a item offsetting another negative item - but just the required change if you are moving from a shifting pattern to a non-shifting pattern.

MizunoJoe 05-14-2012 03:53 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mike O (Post 91446)
Just for clarification - let me describe the exact analogy to the problem I was describing in my initial post where the hands don't go where you want them to go - give the brain's perspective i.e. above plane viewpoint.

To clarify - the essential element is how to control where your hands move.

If you have a gun target say 8 feet away (roughly the same distance from your eyes to the ball in the golf swing) at eye height. Let's assume you pull your gun from the holster at your side and the ideal technique is to bring your gun on a plane that goes directly from your holster to the target (that's the on-plane golf motion). So you start to thrust towards that gun target while at all times keeping you eye on the target (the ball in golf), finally the gun is in line with your view of the target. This may give you the sense/feeling that you took it on the correct line however if we draw a line from your holster to where your gun is at the end of your 3 foot arm - the actual angle it took was not from the holster to the target 8 feet away. If we wanted to use that procedure and have the hand with the gun move on a line from the holster to the gun target 8 feet away, you would need to pick a alternative target below the gun target that would coincide with the distance of three feet out - that would put you on that proper line. So is the aiming point concept still usable Whip? Sure - but it takes a simple geometry calculation to verify it's location in order to achieve the actual ideal movement.

This over-complication indicates a faulty interpretation of the Aiming Point and how it's used.

Firstly, the Aiming Point is either the ball or a small distance before or aft of it ON THE PLANE LINE. This is because of the statement on pg 83: "-2. move the Ball forward or aft of the established Aiming Point...", which is in the context of compensation for different length clubs. When the ball is moved forward or back, it always remains on the Plane Line. This means that the Aiming Point was never meant as a means to direct the hands to any point off the Plane Line. It is a direct substitute for the ball.

Secondly, the pressure felt at PP#3 is the direct substitute for the lagging sweetspot, which is used to hit the direct substitute for the ball, the Aiming Point. HK is very clear on how to use Aiming Point on p83: "At the top of the Backstroke--even at the End(10-21-C)--mentally construct a line from the #3 Pressure Point to the Aiming Point. Let a careful Downstroke direct the pressure precisely along this line. Hitting or Swinging, direct the #3 Pressure Point strongly downward..." You do not manipulate the hand path to visually continue toward the Aiming Point down that mentally constructed straight line, but direct it with the pivot or right triceps from the top, in the direction indicated by that straight line, as if the pressure in PP#3 were free to move directly down that line, and then let the hands go wherever the thrust force takes them, mindful of tracing the Plane Line with PP#3. The later the release of #2, the straighter the hand path will be.

Mike O 05-14-2012 05:19 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by MizunoJoe (Post 91517)
This over-complication indicates a faulty interpretation of the Aiming Point and how it's used.

Firstly, the Aiming Point is either the ball or a small distance before or aft of it ON THE PLANE LINE. This is because of the statement on pg 83: "-2. move the Ball forward or aft of the established Aiming Point...", which is in the context of compensation for different length clubs. When the ball is moved forward or back, it always remains on the Plane Line. This means that the Aiming Point was never meant as a means to direct the hands to any point off the Plane Line. It is a direct substitute for the ball.

Thank you Joe - Well aware of what the aiming point concept is in the book- purpose of my post and thread was to present a new idea/revision to the original.

MizunoJoe 05-14-2012 06:50 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mike O (Post 91523)
Thank you Joe - Well aware of what the aiming point concept is in the book- purpose of my post and thread was to present a new idea/revision to the original.

Because of the title of the thread,

The aiming point concept can create off plane motion, lss pwer, cbface algnmnt

I was trying to point out how the creation of off plane motion could be avoided by correct interpretation/execution of the original Aiming Point concept, which lots of TGMers have used, and continue to use, effectively.

There is at least one former GSED, who has claimed that the Aiming Point concept is invalid, because it causes faulty hand paths and therefore, off plane clubhead motion.

innercityteacher 05-14-2012 08:48 PM

Wow, I did misinterpret the Aiming Point Concept!

Quote:

Secondly, the pressure felt at PP#3 is the direct substitute for the lagging sweetspot, which is used to hit the direct substitute for the ball, the Aiming Point. HK is very clear on how to use Aiming Point on p83: "At the top of the Backstroke--even at the End(10-21-C)--mentally construct a line from the #3 Pressure Point to the Aiming Point. Let a careful Downstroke direct the pressure precisely along this line. Hitting or Swinging, direct the #3 Pressure Point strongly downward..." You do not manipulate the hand path to visually continue toward the Aiming Point down that mentally constructed straight line, but direct it with the pivot or right triceps from the top, in the direction indicated by that straight line, as if the pressure in PP#3 were free to move directly down that line, and then let the hands go wherever the thrust force takes them, mindful of tracing the Plane Line with PP#3. The later the release of #2, the straighter the hand path will be.
Now, if I understand this correctly, Instead of a laboriously slow drag of PP # 3 to the Aiming Point (powerful but only to a point since I am controlling the beast), I figure out the spoke or straight line from the AP and explode at it or DOWN the Line or Spoke, letting everything "all hang out."

WOOO HOOO! Thanks guys!

12 piece bucket 05-14-2012 10:54 PM

We don't have to assume that the aiming point is always in front of the ball.....In my motion I actually feel like the aiming point on the plane line is about 2 feet BACK of the ball...hands/club seeking out the ground and pivot seeking out the target ... if your left shoulder doesn't move at all from the top the hands/club will crash the ground WELL behind the ball...pivot can bring the hands forward in order to get low point in the correct spot for the shot at hand....

I don't see how the hands can be moving down at impact...they could feel that way...but how could they if we assume rhythm? Assuming the same rpm would they not have to be moving up?

innercityteacher 05-15-2012 01:00 PM

Might help?
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by 12 piece bucket (Post 91539)
We don't have to assume that the aiming point is always in front of the ball.....In my motion I actually feel like the aiming point on the plane line is about 2 feet BACK of the ball...hands/club seeking out the ground and pivot seeking out the target ... if your left shoulder doesn't move at all from the top the hands/club will crash the ground WELL behind the ball...pivot can bring the hands forward in order to get low point in the correct spot for the shot at hand....

I don't see how the hands can be moving down at impact...they could feel that way...but how could they if we assume rhythm? Assuming the same rpm would they not have to be moving up?

I thought this might confirm some of the things observed here. I have learned a lot and enjoy the polite exchange. :)

http://lynnblakegolf.com/forum/showthread.php?p=56251&highlight=right+shoulder#po st56251


Quote:

Once you've determined your Fix alignments, the Aiming Point (6-E-2)replaces the Ball. You now direct the Lag Loading (7-19) of the #3 PressurePoint at the Aiming Point as if it were the Ball. This Aiming Pointcan only be determined by experience (Practice!) only. And you will need tolearn how to direct your Thrust precisely at that point once you've learnedwhere it is.

The way to do that is explained in 6-E-2-1. At the Top, you mentally constructa line from the first joint of your Right Forefinger (#3 Pressure Point /6-C-1-3) to the Aiming Point. This becomes your Delivery Path (10-23-A or10-23-C). Practicing in slow motion -- first without a Club; then with a Clubbut no Ball -- you let a careful Downstroke Pivot (On-Plane Right Shoulder /10-13-D) deliver the Lag Pressure Loading (7-19) strongly down the StraightLine Delivery Path (of the Hands). In real time, the Club is driven stronglydownward, smashing through the Ball, through the Aiming Pointto the Low Point to the Both Arms Straight Position(Follow-Through / 8-11) from which you Swivel into your Finish.

The big idea -- if you haven't noticed! -- is "Down." StraightDown through the Aiming Point. Straight Down to the LowPoint of the Stroke. Only then, per 1-L 13/14/15, does the Club begin theUpward portion of its Orbit, and even then the Thrust continues Down Planeuntil the end of the Follow-Through (8-11).

Homer told me one time that very few golfers actually go all the way down.Almost all reach the Ball and begin their upward Motion before the LowPoint is reached. "Even Tour players," he said.

"They almost all come up, and I'm really kind of surprised when I seethem still take a divot."

I asked him for the name of a player who did go all the way down.

"Trevino," he said with a lowered voice and a growl.

"I like that guy. He hits a wedge, and you've got to help himget the club out of the ground!"



_____________

Thanks you guys! Until reading these posts, I didn't realize that the right shoulder can be fired at the Aiming Point whether Hitting or Swining or 4 Barreling !____I struggled with Geometry in school...acne....the heartbreak of Psoriasis...my goldfish died...once! :laughing9

A related question for me is the Greg McHatton's emphasis on "longitudinal acceleration." Does driving the Right/Back Shoulder to the Aiming Point provide the right "longitudinal acceleration" of the #3 PP? I would guess it does but if this should be further researched elsewhere, just say so.

ICT

MizunoJoe 05-15-2012 01:56 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by 12 piece bucket (Post 91539)
We don't have to assume that the aiming point is always in front of the ball...

I don't see how the hands can be moving down at impact...they could feel that way...but how could they if we assume rhythm? Assuming the same rpm would they not have to be moving up?

Right, as I said above, it can be behind the ball also, but on the Plane Line.

The hands can be moving down at Impact, but the club head will have been thrown away, unless, like Trevino, the ball is played in the center of the stance, and then before taking the club back, the feet are moved toward the target(the Trevino Two Step), locating the ball off the right foot. :eyes:

12 piece bucket 05-15-2012 07:16 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by MizunoJoe (Post 91555)
Right, as I said above, it can be behind the ball also, but on the Plane Line.

The hands can be moving down at Impact, but the club head will have been thrown away, unless, like Trevino, the ball is played in the center of the stance, and then before taking the club back, the feet are moved toward the target(the Trevino Two Step), locating the ball off the right foot. :eyes:

At risk of looking "nit-picky"....plane line OR DELIVERY LINE ...if you are using one of the alternate Delivery Line procedures...of course those being derived from the original Plane Line...

O.B.Left 05-15-2012 11:42 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by 12 piece bucket (Post 91557)
At risk of looking "nit-picky"....plane line OR DELIVERY LINE ...if you are using one of the alternate Delivery Line procedures...of course those being derived from the original Plane Line...


Agreed, along the Arc or Angle of Approach .... visually from the players perspective . Along the path of the club head blur so to speak . Or, along the club head path as seen in 3d space..... meaning the Aiming Point is not on the plane line except for balls played at low point.

O.B.Left 05-16-2012 12:54 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mike O (Post 91436)

Thrust effort and where PP#3 would move are two separate things - to clarify - even from the top PP#3 doesn't move towards the aiming point - due to shoulders uncoil etc.


This is where it gets interesting eh Mike? The straight line thrust vs the true path of the #3.

If you throw a stone from top at the ball or aiming point, (passively or actively if you will) does that mean the #3pp travels a straight line towards same target?

Id say no (like you offer above) but I do think the intention to do so must straighten out the hand path somewhat. Presenting a different set of physics distinct from Tracing. One that could lend itself to Longitudinal Acceleration , Drag Loading , Delayed Release , smaller Pulley Wheel etc etc etc.....Or a hitters cross line thrust given the direction of thrust towards the aiming point.


Intentions vs real??? Is the Aiming Point an Intention or an effort as you say, only? Im fine with that if it is. A pitchers hand doesn't travel a straight line to the catchers mitt. Is he thinking about the curved path of his hand? Doubt it. I dunno.

What d'ya think?

HungryBear 05-16-2012 11:47 AM

In The Beginning..
 
Going back to the original thesis of this thread.
If a single plane, with or without the aiming point concept, is used. And, this plane is well above the elbow plane. Does the same problem occur? If not why not?

hb

O.B.Left 05-16-2012 11:57 AM

Questions

-Is the Aiming Point Procedure limited to shots where the butt end of the club points at the plane line? Isn't putting for example , a Tracing deal only? Does this suggest a graduation from Tracing to Aiming Point as the swing lengthens assuming you do want to use the Aiming Point Procedure?

-Can you employ the Aiming Point Procedure and the Visual Equivalents (club head blur method of monitoring on plane club head travel) at the same time? Both Visual Equivalents or just the straight line blur Angle of Approach Procedure? Can you throw cross line at the Aiming Point while visually monitoring the curved on plane Arc of Approach ?

HungryBear 05-16-2012 12:19 PM

Thinking From This
 
http://www.lynnblakegolf.com/index.p...very-Path.html




HB

O.B.Left 05-16-2012 12:30 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by HungryBear (Post 91572)
Going back to the original thesis of this thread.
If a single plane, with or without the aiming point concept, is used. And, this plane is well above the elbow plane. Does the same problem occur? If not why not?

hb



Great question HB.

Couple of thoughts :

In Homers single plane downswing he presented what he termed the "high elbow plane" . An elbow plane that lined up with a Turned Shoulder Plane allowing for on plane Right Shoulder support to the on plane Power Package in Startdown and an On Plane Right Forearm Flying Wedge through the ball. Not very common in the field I know.


Some time ago on this forum Yoda pointed out that the Aiming Point is represented in the photos of 10-19 through to 10-23 by a dark shadowy like arrow. An arrow perhaps made of black card or tape by Homer and placed flat to the plane in the photos . Its a straight line cutting vertically across the face of the plane of the plane board that whats her name is standing in. What the heck was her name again? She's still alive eh! Living in Hawaii.

Anywho if you flip along through the pics the arrow can be seen more in some photos than others but I believe this is due more to Homers exposure than his intentions. I even see it , if faintly, in Circle Path 10-23-E #2. Now go to the photos accompanying 10-23-A , Straight Line Hand Path (associated with zero shift IMO) and 10-23- D Angled hand path (associated with a shift down to the (true) Elbow Plane). Notice how the arrow which is clearly visible in these photos has been moved!! Moved from Top in A , to a position at the top of the straight line path on the Elbow Plane in B. There being a "vertical drop" of the hands in B which would be better seen from a down the line perspective but is shown as a angled line in that photo from caddy view.

So, Im thinking the thrust of the Aiming Point Procedure commences once you have reached the top of the impact plane angle. Makes sense to me you wouldn't want to thrust at the aiming point and drop vertically at the same time. Plane shifters have to wait a little longer!

My apologies for not answering your question more directly .

MizunoJoe 05-16-2012 01:12 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by O.B.Left (Post 91563)
..... meaning the Aiming Point is not on the plane line except for balls played at low point.

Once again, from pg 83, in the context of compensation for different length clubs:

--2. move the Ball forward or aft of the established Aiming Point...

which would make no sense were the Aiming Point not on the Plane Line. The ball is never moved fore or aft on a delivery line. :nono:

MizunoJoe 05-16-2012 01:47 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by O.B.Left (Post 91575)
There being a "vertical drop" of the hands in B which would be better seen from a down the line perspective but is shown as a angled line in that photo from caddy view.

So, Im thinking the thrust of the Aiming Point Procedure commences once you have reached the top of the impact plane angle. Makes sense to me you wouldn't want to thrust at the aiming point and drop vertically at the same time. Plane shifters have to wait a little longer!

.

And yet again, pg 83:

"At the top of the Backstroke--even at the End(10-21-C)--mentally construct a line from the #3 Pressure Point to the Aiming Point."

which precludes any waiting and preempts the use of the Aiming Point concept in any DS with a plane shift which requires a vertical hand drop at a point off the Plane Line. Use of a plane shift on the DS takes the player close, but not entirely into the dark shadows of Pivot Controlled Hands.

O.B.Left 05-16-2012 05:27 PM

1 Attachment(s)
Quote:

Originally Posted by MizunoJoe (Post 91581)
Once again, from pg 83, in the context of compensation for different length clubs:

--2. move the Ball forward or aft of the established Aiming Point...

which would make no sense were the Aiming Point not on the Plane Line. The ball is never moved fore or aft on a delivery line. :nono:


Hey MJ.

By "Plane Line" I was referring to Low Point Plane Line , the Base of the Plane . As distinct form the IMpact Plane Line. The ball played at low point will sit on the Base Line Plane Line aka the Low Point Plane Line and the Impact Plane Line . But as the ball is moved back in the stance ... BACK , UP the plane and IN (3 dimensional ) along the on plane , circular club head orbit aka the delivery line of the club head, the distance between the Impact Plane Line and the Low Point Plane Line increase, widen . The ball played back in the stance sits on the Impact Plane Line but not the Low Point Plane Line or "plane line" in common speak.

Ah geometry in words, it sucks ...

You have to move the ball back along the delivery line of the club head assuming you want the club head to meet up with the ball.

Heres a diagram. Disregard the arrow , that curve from impact to low point along the circular club head orbit is the Delivery Line (and the Arc of Attack).

O.B.Left 05-16-2012 06:00 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by MizunoJoe (Post 91582)
And yet again, pg 83:

"At the top of the Backstroke--even at the End(10-21-C)--mentally construct a line from the #3 Pressure Point to the Aiming Point."

which precludes any waiting and preempts the use of the Aiming Point concept in any DS with a plane shift which requires a vertical hand drop at a point off the Plane Line. Use of a plane shift on the DS takes the player close, but not entirely into the dark shadows of Pivot Controlled Hands.

Re the sections Ive highlighted above in bold type:

Thats Homer for you ... up to his old tricks with words. But "mentally constructing" is not one and the same as actually Thrusting from End . See photo 10-23-C and read the accompanying text. The hands retrace the Top Arc from End to the Top of the straight line delivery path .... a place from which the #3 is then thrusted straight line towards the aiming point . See the dark shadowy arrow Homer mounted to the face of the plane and how it aligns to the straight line delivery path not to where the hands are at End.

Per 12-3. "Aiming Point -Lag" is not mentioned until Downstroke Section 8 (the period of hand/ arm acceleration). No mention of it Section 7 Startdown (the period of right Shoulder Acceleration). Could it be implied in Section 6 Top , Delivery Line Prep? Maybe. Making the "mentally constructing" a form of prep from Top perhaps. Yoda'd know for sure.

Re the latter bit Ive bolded. See 10-23-B where Homer describes the Angled Line associated with a shift back to the elbow plane. See the photo that goes along with it ....it includes the shadowy black arrow representing the Aiming Point. Its faint but its there. Homer obviously thought you could use the Aiming Point Procedure with a Plane Shift.

Further down in the very same paragraph from page 83 which you quoted , Homer describes employing the Aiming Point Procedure even when using Circle Path.

Quote:


Three procedures are available to compensate for this:

1. move the Aiming Point forward or aft of the established Ball location. This Aiming Point procedure seems more easily acquired if introduced as a Feel. At the top of the Backstroke – even at End (10-21-C) – mental construct a line form the #3 Pressure Point to the Aiming Point. Let a careful Downstroke direct the thrust precisely along this line. Hitting or Swinging, direct the #3 Pressure Point strongly downward per 1-L-9, 1-L-10, 2-J-3 and 6-C-2-A to insure the “Downward” element of Three Dimensional Impact (2-C-0). That is – TRY TO DRIVE THE BALL INTO THE GROUND, NOT INTO THE AIR. If you don’t KNOW that you hit down, assume that you didn’t. The Hands must ALWAYS take one of the Delivery Paths (10-23) but even with the Circle Path, the Thrust is still a straight-line EFFORT toward the Aiming Point. Even “Tracing” (5-0) must not disrupt it.





All analogies come up short but if I may . Imagine a bicycle sitting upside down with its tires in the air , friction free for spinning. To spin the wheel you could place your hand on a spoke at say 1 o'clock and thrust straight line towards 6 o'clock on the dial thereby spinning the wheel. If your hand were to stay attached to the spoke it would not travel the same straight line. In golf it could travel a straightish line though I would venture. There being no spoke to mechanically ensure a circular hand path.

I dunno. Im just a dumb golfer trying to figure out how Yoda hits the ball so nicely for a 600 year old guy. He loves the Aiming Point Procedure , that I know for sure. When I first saw him hitting balls in person I was immediately struck by his Down. I couldn't really see it but I sensed it . Blammo. Aiming Point sure helps in that endeavour.

HungryBear 05-16-2012 06:30 PM

Pch?
 
Where does HK relate a DS plane shift to "Pivot Controlled Hands"?

hb

HungryBear 05-16-2012 06:42 PM

No Shift Plane.
 
I looked at a "bunch" of plane board swings on Youtube and without exception they were problematic. No shoulder tilt, high right shoulder pivot, arms swings, no rhythm all this required to keep the shaft on the plane board. Got any good examples of a NO Shift swing that is true No shift?

HB

12 piece bucket 05-16-2012 07:29 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by O.B.Left (Post 91573)
Questions

-Is the Aiming Point Procedure limited to shots where the butt end of the club points at the plane line? Isn't putting for example , a Tracing deal only? Does this suggest a graduation from Tracing to Aiming Point as the swing lengthens assuming you do want to use the Aiming Point Procedure?

-Can you employ the Aiming Point Procedure and the Visual Equivalents (club head blur method of monitoring on plane club head travel) at the same time? Both Visual Equivalents or just the straight line blur Angle of Approach Procedure? Can you throw cross line at the Aiming Point while visually monitoring the curved on plane Arc of Approach ?

Q1...Aiming Point is the direction of Lag/Thrust...not the butt cap....that's where you get your junk jacked up and get your hands way away from you and the clubhead laying down...this inhibits the club switching ends and encountering the pulley...absolutely you can use the concept with any shot...it's up to you and your inherent release feel required to get the club to throw out/drive out on plane...

Q2...yes dingdong you answered your question in your prior post...arc and angle of approach ARE VISUAL EQUIVALENTS..

Q3 yes...you put the aiming point where it helps you ... so if your are an over the top biscuit flipper...you may put the aiming point well in front of the ball out to the right...if you are a underplane goat humping laying your shaft down dingdong...you may put it inside the line...whatever works...so if the aiming point is in front of the ball on the arc of aproach ...would it not be inside the plane line?

KEY TO THIS .... Homer SAID....he can't tell you where YOUR aiming point will be....EXPERIMENT!!!

MizunoJoe 05-16-2012 07:32 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by O.B.Left (Post 91590)
But "mentally constructing" is not one and the same as actually Thrusting from End .

I would note that in the text:

"At the top of the Backstroke – even at End (10-21-C) – mental construct a line form the #3 Pressure Point to the Aiming Point."

he specifically says "top", not "Top", which makes me think the mental straight line construction AND the thrust is at the top, even if it's the End, and not the Top. After all, you hardly have time to mentally construct anything once the DS is under way. Also, thrusting from the End would deflect the straight line effort to start from the Top automatically.

HOWEVER, you are absolutely right about plane shifts and the Aiming Point, because of the text on pg 202, in 10-23-B. Angled Line:

"From the Top-of-the-Straight-Line hand position the Hands take a nearly vertical path to the Plane of the Elbow Angle before they start their drive directly at and through the Aiming Point (2-J-3)."

I can't explain this apparent contradiction. :confused:

12 piece bucket 05-16-2012 07:32 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by MizunoJoe (Post 91581)
Once again, from pg 83, in the context of compensation for different length clubs:

--2. move the Ball forward or aft of the established Aiming Point...

which would make no sense were the Aiming Point not on the Plane Line. The ball is never moved fore or aft on a delivery line. :nono:

Disagree....an object can be forward or aft of something and not be on the same line....

MizunoJoe 05-16-2012 07:54 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by HungryBear (Post 91591)
Where does HK relate a DS plane shift to "Pivot Controlled Hands"?

hb

He doesn't say that. I believe that without an Aiming Point on or near the ball, you are using Pivot Control. But, because of 10-23-B, it's clear that HK is saying you can get to the elbow plane vertically with PP #3 and still use an Aiming Point.

MizunoJoe 05-16-2012 08:05 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by 12 piece bucket (Post 91595)
Disagree....an object can be forward or aft of something and not be on the same line....

The ball is always moved fore or aft on the Plane Line when adjusting for different clubs.

O.B.Left 05-16-2012 09:17 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by 12 piece bucket (Post 91593)

Q2...yes dingdong you answered your question in your prior post...arc and angle of approach ARE VISUAL EQUIVALENTS..


Well at least someone is replying to my posts! Even if its me. At least I don't start going back and forth with myself or arguing with myself like you do sometimes.

O.B.Left 05-16-2012 09:37 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by MizunoJoe (Post 91594)
I would note that in the text:

"At the top of the Backstroke – even at End (10-21-C) – mental construct a line form the #3 Pressure Point to the Aiming Point."

he specifically says "top", not "Top", which makes me think the mental straight line construction AND the thrust is at the top, even if it's the End, and not the Top. After all, you hardly have time to mentally construct anything once the DS is under way. Also, thrusting from the End would deflect the straight line effort to start from the Top automatically.

Thanks Joe

Thing is Homer never showed a photo of the straight line hand path beginning at End. End being anything above Top , right shoulder high. Some guys have their hands way up over top of the their head at End. For them to get back to Top a place from which they can drive straight line they have to retrace the top arc. In so doing their hands move BACKWARDS (not forwards) Down and Out . From Top however they move FORWARDS DOWN AND OUT. Thats a critical difference , perhaps accounting for why Homer depicted straight line Hand Paths as commencing from Top at the highest.

To thrust straight line from an End where your hands are above your head say would be very cramped assuming a straight line hand path . You'd have to bend your left arm there by losing radius width. It'd have a super steep angle of attack.

Aiming Point Procedure , Thrust is a Right Arm Action . Hitting or Swinging , Actively or Passively the Right Arm is always Driving. Put another way to my mind, the right arms motion swinging or action hitting is very much a throwing like motion . Where does it throw towards , thrust towards ? The Aiming Point. This thrusting drives the circular orbit of the club head.

Quote:


6-C-2-A THE ESSENCE of Clubhead Lag technique is that it is always both Aiming AND Thrust. Passive – it is primarily Aiming the Lag Pressure. Active – it is the primarily Thrusting the Lag Pressure Point. The Orbiting Clubhead does not seek out the Ball – it seeks out the Delivery Line. But never directly – only via the Right Forearm and the #3 Pressure Point per 2-F, 5-0 and 7-3. It is guided along that Line to the Both Arms Straight configuration by the straight line thrust of the #3 Pressure Point toward the Angle of Approach quadrant of the Ball – or Aiming Point – per 1-F, 1-L-9/10, 2-J-3 and 6-E-2.

Quote:

Summing up the Right Arm action - it is always a straight line effort and/or motion and normally is strictly Clubhead Control. In the meantime the Flat Left Wrist (Clubface Control) under every condition or situation is concerned only with arriving at Impact, Vertical to the ground in the process of executing the selected Hinge Action. So, per 1-F the Hands are correlated but independent of every other factor." Practice every phase, over and over until mastered.


12 piece bucket 05-16-2012 11:01 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by MizunoJoe (Post 91597)
The ball is always moved fore or aft on the Plane Line when adjusting for different clubs.

Could be on the delivery line to...all delivery lines include the ball and the aiming point if need be....so you can be aft/forward on the delivery line as well.

MizunoJoe 05-17-2012 02:31 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by O.B.Left (Post 91603)
Thanks Joe

Thing is Homer never showed a photo of the straight line hand path beginning at End. End being anything above Top , right shoulder high. Some guys have their hands way up over top of the their head at End. For them to get back to Top a place from which they can drive straight line they have to retrace the top arc. In so doing their hands move BACKWARDS (not forwards) Down and Out . From Top however they move FORWARDS DOWN AND OUT. Thats a critical difference , perhaps accounting for why Homer depicted straight line Hand Paths as commencing from Top at the highest.

To thrust straight line from an End where your hands are above your head say would be very cramped assuming a straight line hand path . You'd have to bend your left arm there by losing radius width. It'd have a super steep angle of attack.

Aiming Point Procedure , Thrust is a Right Arm Action . Hitting or Swinging , Actively or Passively the Right Arm is always Driving. Put another way to my mind, the right arms motion swinging or action hitting is very much a throwing like motion . Where does it throw towards , thrust towards ? The Aiming Point. This thrusting drives the circular orbit of the club head.

Thank you, OB, for making a lot of good points, which have convinced me that my understanding of Aiming Point is apparently limited to a Swing with top = Top and a single plane DS!

The only extra I would add to your AP procedure is that I want to make sure the downward thrust is from the shoulder ONLY - no adding, and feel like my passive arms are being pulled out of the shoulder sockets by the pivot thrust. :golf:

12 piece bucket 05-17-2012 09:07 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by MizunoJoe (Post 91594)
I would note that in the text:

"At the top of the Backstroke – even at End (10-21-C) – mental construct a line form the #3 Pressure Point to the Aiming Point."

he specifically says "top", not "Top", which makes me think the mental straight line construction AND the thrust is at the top, even if it's the End, and not the Top. After all, you hardly have time to mentally construct anything once the DS is under way. Also, thrusting from the End would deflect the straight line effort to start from the Top automatically.

HOWEVER, you are absolutely right about plane shifts and the Aiming Point, because of the text on pg 202, in 10-23-B. Angled Line:

"From the Top-of-the-Straight-Line hand position the Hands take a nearly vertical path to the Plane of the Elbow Angle before they start their drive directly at and through the Aiming Point (2-J-3)."

I can't explain this apparent contradiction. :confused:

....if your procedure is based on a derived delivery line/arc/angle of approach...or .... straight up plane line....the aiming point is contained in the inherent geometry of your selected procedure...it can the ball, forward or aft of the ball with the aiming point and ball both lying on the selected geometric procedure line arc whatever procedure you pick....your "straight line" feel may be different for an arc of approach procedure than linear delivery...your feel may be more rounded if you are swinging on a flatter plane ....different for wheel rim vs. wheel spoke....if you are hitting on an elbow plane vs a TSP...your thrust may emanate from a different point on your torso....the right shoulder is a dual agent....but is it the "point of the shoulder" or your torso? For example on the elbow plane hitting ...your gonna likely feel the force emanate from lower in your rib cage...where as with the TSP hitting procedure you'll likely feel the force emanate from the backstop more up in your right pectoral area.... basically it is YOUR procedure and YOUR feel...YOUR aiming point...place it where it works for you....if you don't dig it ...ditch it...

HOMER .... WAS ..... ABOUT.....OPTIONS

12 piece bucket 05-17-2012 09:14 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by MizunoJoe (Post 91627)
Thank you, OB, for making a lot of good points, which have convinced me that my understanding of Aiming Point is apparently limited to a Swing with top = Top and a single plane DS!

The only extra I would add to your AP procedure is that I want to make sure the downward thrust is from the shoulder ONLY - no adding, and feel like my passive arms are being pulled out of the shoulder sockets by the pivot thrust. :golf:

Sounds like swinging....could be entirely different for hitting though...

O.B.Left 05-18-2012 07:24 PM

1 Attachment(s)
Quote:

Originally Posted by 12 piece bucket (Post 91641)
Sounds like swinging....could be entirely different for hitting though...

Yup. Exactly. Hitters would "add" . Add Right Arm Thrust to push the Primary Lever and extend the Right Arm to Both Arms Straight. Bent Right Arm at Impact , straight Right Arm at Follow Through. There's some magic in that. Magic that Swingers have a harder time learning unless they've goofed with Hitting.

We're into the left sided view of the swing vs the right sided view . Thing is the two are not mutually exclusive they co exist in the same motion. Some swingers will never see the Aiming Point deal cause its totally outside of their left sided perspective of the swing.. The Primary Lever, the Swingers Flail , uncork and roll the club head passing the hands etc vs the Right Side view of the bent Right Hand staying in front of the Clubhead etc etc.

Ideally IMO, "passive " Armed Swingers (passive except for the non accelerating thrust of Extensor Action) throw out the #2 and roll the #3 consciously (the Flail) but in the process also passively throw out the Right Arm to full extension at Follow Through. If they're not they should be. This Throwing like Motion (swinging) or Action (hitting) has a target , the Aiming Point.

The Aiming Point is a right sided deal. Loaded with Lag Pressure mere motion can feel like an action. Some swingers when they discover this can think they've slipped into hitting. OMG! Yoda went to Homer with a similar predicament back in 1982. He knew he was Swinging in all manners but wondered about a new found appreciation or consciousness of his Right Arm's throwing like motion. "Im sending bullets out there" . "I feel exactly like a base ball pitcher". But was this right arm deal passive or active? Was it Swinging , Hitting or Right Arm Swinging? In the end I believe Homer concluded it was Swinging with Pitch Basic Elbow . Pitch being called pitch for a reason. Its a throwing like motion. Loaded with Lag it does feel heavy and action like even if its only mere motion.


"Swinging or Hitting the Right Side is always Driving."

Max Impact 05-19-2012 08:37 PM

Let me explain how I teach an Aiming Point procedure. Construct a straight line from the hands to a point on the plane line. The right hand and arm should thrust/straighten forcefully, directly toward the aiming point. The ball will be long gone while the thrust continues. The aiming point should be where the right arm POINTS to when it should become straight, after the right hand passes the left shoulder. We're talking a couple of feet past the left foot on the plane line.

This procedure is a "feel", not so "real". Do the hands actually travel linearly to the aiming point? Hell, no! The hands travel in a circular arc through the impact zone, and as Joe has correctly poited out, are actually already on the way up and in while the clubhead is still on its way down and out. But does this procedure work wonders for keeping the clubhead descending to the left shoulder? Oh, hells yeah!


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