Yes, I'm afraid it is. The only throwout that's not throwaway is #3 Throwout. The problem with uncocking #2 early is that #3 Throwout then doesn't have enough clubhead speed to deliver to impact, unless you can make up for it with pivot speed.

The non auto left wrist throw can be early or late. If you watch Lynns video above where he demonstrates the plane of the left wrist cock you will hear him suggest that vertical left wrist motion (uncorking) makes horiZontal left wrist motion (bending, throwWay, loss of rhythm ) less likely. He puts it in a more resolute manner actually , something like " the good news is you can't do this while you're doing this" . Sorry on my phone and going from memory.

For sure you could do it early too early . But the hackers over the top problem that leads to throwaway is not the same deal.

Sequenced Release by definition will throw out #2 first.

Where does the club begin to encounter the pulley? From top? Left arm parallel to the ground? Hands at right hip high? Hands on right thigh? Hands on ding dong? Hands on left thigh? Are there options?

Loren thinks I'm pulling his leg and you got a pulley near your ding dong .....what the heck kind a thread is this?

Yes. There are options.

Ive got more time now to expand . This ones for you Bucket. Later is better for full power for any given hand speed but the road to later does not run through "holding on to it". That intention is not consistent with Homers advice. Somewhat counter intuitively he recommended a stepping stone progression through the Release Triggers the Throws. Non Auto to Auto.

My motivation for this discussion is that I see Mike Austins Release Trigger or Throw (though its open for interpretation) as demonstrated in his Biggest Lie video as being more consistent with Homer and Lynn than most folks would believe or conceive. Amongst TGM ers even.

Ive read about TGM being this and that , holding on to #2 super late, delayed release, holding your fully cocked left wrist deep, past the line of site to the ball etc. Theres no holding to anything other than the club when the hands are just clamps.

While I agree that Auto Snap Sequenced for Swingers is awesome and arguably ideal for full power shots I see it as one of a multitude of optional release patterns in Homers book. Further more and this is big for me , Homer was clear that the road to Auto Snap was not via holding on to anything but rather through a stepping stone progression of Non Auto to Auto Throws. A deliberate Triggering of Release if you will as opposed to the deliberate prevention of Release, strangely. Golf as a game opposites again. You hit down to hit it up, you throw it out to learn to delay it. Thats Homer. The other way, the hold off should not be attributed to him.

My understanding of what Lynn terms the (Non Auto) "Left" WRist Throw , the Triggering of #2 Angle Throwout is not in the book under 10-20-E as I read it.......something that gives me reason to doubt my understanding of things, honestly. But practically on the tee and in what I read from Lynn it is very real, critical actually. It is implied, however, to my mind . How could you Non Auto Trigger a Sequenced Release 2 then 3 without Triggering 2 Throwout? Its first when things are Sequenced. Talking Swinging here.... the swingers flail, the swingers prime concern per . And its labelled Standard Wrist Action. Uncock and Roll.

Mike Austin's stimulus response note is smack dab at the heart of 12-3's "Delivery Line , uncocking prep. Delivery Line Roll prep"........which is listed in the section titled "Top". Prep being key , you must prepare . To what? To uncock on line! He doesnt say Delivery Line hold the angle prep! Why would he advise that when he labels #2 angle release as "Velocity Power". Why inhibit velocity power? Let er go baby , throw it. Why inhibit hammering when hammering a nail? Mike Austin's emphasis on the uncocking as power is along the same of line of thinking I believe.

Did Mike Austin Delay? Of course he did. He couldnt have hit it 517 yards or whatever the heck it was without delayed release. Lynn's Auto Snap, when he wants to be. Neither of those two got there by holding on to anything. Im Random Sweep personally always have been , but Im getting later , getting more power and its via my experimentation with the Throws. Golf as a game of opposites.

It may seem counter intuitive but you just have to try it out if you're a Swinger. Have to unless youre already Auto Snap. My results were almost immediate, but it was under Lynns watchful eye which certainly helped. Do the Startdown Waggle as illustrated in his video . Do it with a correct Ground Up Downstroke Sequence as he illustrates , dont do it with your hands only, that wont work. It'll take a while to click in, you may need to turn off your old (and perhaps unrecognized by you) Throw. Cant use the Right Arm for anything other than Extensor Action. Gotta keep the left hand turned to plane while throwing out #2 if you want to be Sequenced. You'll feel the Pivots pull of Longitudinal at the #2 pressure point as take it to your Release Point and then throw it.

The other possibility is that Im outa step and the rest of the marching band is doing fine. Thats always a consideration.

circle throw
 

I am trying to find the place that would possibly explain the "circle"thing,I thought it related to the 2 bones in forearm being rotated,turned anti-clockwise at top,and then unfold forearm on downswing into the "underarm " toss,at top ,it would have to resemble ,or in fact be chicken winging,so if the toss was starting from the top into pitch,it would have to be in form of circle.........heh heh i think:eyes:

Right thigh! :salut:

But also remember, we're in 3 dimensions, so don't get hung up on the belly view.

Still not sold on this full power business....but that's OK...to you uncocking #2 left wrist throw....do you not agree that this motion is also occurring in a simultaneous release? I think the hammering vertical drill is ascribed to swinging because in both cases the sweetspot is basically laying on the plane of motion...in vertical hammering there is no need for the sweetspot to move off the plane....I think this is why Homer felt hitting was more accurate... the sweetspot gets off the face of the plane earlier and starts to look at it's target (ball/plane line) much earlier.

In your "left wrist throw" the left thumb is releasing a in a different direction to the plane line for sequenced vs. simultaneous....but the club is thrown out in both cases...but the sweetspot makes a different motion.

Why do you think that Joe?

Kevin

Don't get hung on what either Mike used as buzzwords.
He threw it around the circle (the swing arc) with the shoulders, the fastest moving part of the body, and Dunaway demonstrated that in his Iron Byron analogy.
Body, arms and hands are three separate zones and power comes from the arms, but not independently of any other part of the power package (which excludes body. The right shoulder is the last component of the body and also the first component of the power package.)

What they failed to mention is that Austin laid off the shaft in startdown, which has some benefits re: OTT and throwaway.

And he added right arm on entry to the release area. He said so, to make sure the roll to vertical wrists happened.
Study the swing sequence.

I'd say he was a nearly perfect 4-barrel swinger.
I would change the two-foot balance, right foot balance and left foot balance, and the leg straightening to what we now know (Zenolink) as good biomechanics and keep the center of mass between the feet, not on top of them. It's the natural way the body wants to move.
On top of the feet you've lost all the ground forces you could have built up in the backswing and have to recreate them.

He did not spin the hips out before impact. They pause to transfer momentum to the shoulders to build upon. The hips hit the ground forces in the front foot. Whether Mike Austin did or did not do this, angle the left foot out about 30 degrees to receive those ground forces without rolling over to the outside.

So quit looking for something with which to throw it around the circle. It's the shoulders with the hands glued to the shoulders from the Top for a very long time.

The swing sequences show all this.

I know. Thats why I wrote "for any given hand speed". The "advantage" to an earlier Simultaneous Non Auto Random Sweep Release (right arm or roll the left wrist throw) you looking for maybe that most golfers can swing harder, get the hands going faster. Go full Arnie on it with the Right Arm for instance.

Simultaneous will have 2 and 3 going at the same time yes. Some guys get 2 then 3 overlapping. To me the difference is in the Throw employed , Left Wrist , Right Arm etc . The intention is different , they feel different, they are different , different Throws and different flails. For Simultaneous you could assume that 12-3 becomes . Delivery Line uncocking and roll prep. One sentence. The on line uncocking with the left wrist or right palm held flat to plane followed by a Roll is different. Most golfers dont stumble onto it given Steering , the perception that you have to get that face off the plane and square to the ball early. In Sequenced , Snap ....that face is laying on the plane late, its wide open so to speak. Takes some getting used to , like diving off the high board. You can hit a few hozzle rockets while learning it as the shaft and sweetspot are inline late. Uh...didnt they say Hogan hit the odd shan% ? Which is why he designed the little heal on his irons under the shaft. Id say most guys just Throw a Roll off the plane and the uncocking happens on its own, Simultaneous be it Hitting or Swinging. I did that for sure. You can play some good golf that way. Really good golf. Swinging like that can feel very right sided as the Right Forearm Wedge takes a load after the Random Sweep Release. The move to hitting can be a small one for those guys.... was for me.

Homer thought that CF sequenced was not subject to the Slowing Effect of Lever Extension....... whereas hitting simultaneous was (but the hitter can thrust harder too). Must say Im a little foggy on that business.



Yup two types of throwout. One where the clubhead moves outside the hands when viewed caddy (uncocking ) during Radial acceleration. The other when the clubhead moves outside the Hands as seen DTL (rolling). Both can be Triggered by a Non Auto Throw, which is similarly aligned to what CF on its own would produce.

But I dont think the Sweetspot moves off the Plane Angle for Simultaneous as the pull of CF holds it down if you know what I mean. Im assuming youre talking about Simultaneous pushing the sweetspot above the plane angle? I wonder about that but I dont see it in video from DTL .... CF pulls, undoes the #2 angle keeping the sweetspot on the plane. Got my lab coat here, goggles, pocket protector .... Can you see the sweetpot on a golfer with a Right Arm throw moving off the plane or above the plane from DTL?

Please ignore Mr. Austin's chin and redraw the lines from the 'nape of the neck' (the 'Swivel Point' of the Stationary Head). [TGMers see 1-L#2.] Doing this, his Head -- and Golf Stroke -- will be found quite centered.

:salut:

thank you Loren all good,even when we look into wrong swing thoughts ......we still learn...so long as we dont get bogged down,we never stop learning do we

Lesson learned. Bad lines and bad angle. I'll not trust others pictures without study in the future. :salut:

Kevin

Simultaneous is #3 and #2 going "simultaneously" so it therefore to me stands to reason that the sweetspots relationship to the plane is going to be inherently different....to me sequenced has the sweetspot laying on the play much longer than simultaneous...to me the release types produce distinctly different motions with regards to the sweetspot, right elbow, clubface, spine and shaft.

Im with ya on everything except the laying on the plane longer, not sure what you mean there. So lets say you have two swings both on the same plane angle. Both with the same Release Point. One Simu one Sequenced , the Sequenced one throws out #2 down the plane with the Right Hand staying flat to Plane , no shift necessary. What the Simultaneous version throws out #3 with a Right Hand Throw say talking Hitting , #2 throws out as well via the pull of C.F. and the sweetpot on the face of the plane starts to face the ball, rotates with the Left WRist as it comes off the plane.......Is there necessarily a plane shift to your mind?

Just trying to follow you.

The hitter doesn't use CF.

No sir......what I'm saying is due to #3 inherently releasing earlier in simultaneous that the ClubFACE will simply have a different alignment that sequenced. That being looking at the ball earlier in the downstroke. No plane shifting...same plane just different motion of the face due to the definition of the release....in turn effecting HOW the sweetspot is released in space, the hinge motion, right elbow alignment AND PIVOT. I'm not saying that Sequenced is off plane just that the motion of the face and basic elbow position are different which in turn impacts other components in the chain of events.

Gotta ya and agreed. Just making sure Im following.

Hey Loren. Glad you're hanging around, its great to have you here.

Does the Right ARm Throw fire 2 and 3 together , actively , directly or does it merely throw out #3, push the Left Wrist off the plane with CF pulling out #2? My Right Arm throw seems like #3 only in terms of work but of course theres some #2 . Im mean hitters do have some #2 right. If its a thrusting of 2 and 3 together , then how do you need to position your Right Elbow and grip to thrust on the aft and the top of the shaft at the same time? Or conversely , what about a Swinger who Rolls his Left Wrist off the Plane as a Trigger? A swinger with Simultaneous if you will. What pulls out his #2 angle if he's not firing it.

I dunno, always just thought of it as the pull of CF uncocking the #2 towards the plane line.

Sorry for the out of left field questions. That wild mushroom salad Bucket made me has me feeling all weird.

I am flattered, O.B.
We are so totally done with Mike Austin. Iron Mike is exhausted.

Yes, it does.
Just as the folding right arm raises the left arm and cocks the left wrist, the straightening right arm lowers the left arm and uncocks the left wrist.
Likewise, the straightening right arm controls the roll to vertical wrists for impact.
So uncocking and rolling are all done with one motion. The hitter is especially susceptible to throwaway and must start slowly and get the right shoulder and elbow closer to the ball before release.
The left arm is inert. It's the right forearm that must be thrown or driven back to its attitude and elbow bend set up at impact address fix.
Swinger or hitter.

This has nothing to do with plane angle.

TGM is not concerned with positions, just dynamic alignments. The right elbow location is a result of the loading, the right arm for a hitter, the left wrist for a swinger. And this is explained by hinge action, left wrist perpendicular to the ground or perpendicular to the plane. Of course you can't carry either one in the backswing all the way to the Top without doing ungolflike motions, so the pivot turns the Flying Wedge to the proper loading attitude depending on intent. The swinger does optionally does it on purpose.

Some pressure points are for monitoring and others are for pressuring against. #1 for the hitter is for thrusting against both the left arm and the shaft, aft. The lag pressure is felt aft by the hitter, never on top, in the #3 pressure point, or any combination of pressure points you choose.

The only grip that will preserve the Flying Wedges is the 10-2-B strong single action. FLV left, BLV right, left thumb aft, palm grip right on top of left thumb in lifeline of right palm, which puts the forearm on plane with the shaft. This is in impact fix address.

Hitters optionally choose (Yoda does) 10-2-D Strong Double Action which is Turned left wrist (to top), Vertical right wrist, thumb aft. This puts wrist cocking motion in line with the right wrist bend to give extra cocking feel to the hitter. Any left wrist bend at address must be preserved throughout.
Also especially useful for cut shots. (Straight vertical hinge action.)

"Laying off the shaft" is not a release trigger, it's a dynamic alignment. Release is much later and is the out-of-line accumulators being allowed to seek their in-line conditions. The laid off shaft will seek an in-line condition in time.

It has advantages in prevention or mitigating effects of OTT, conveying the idea that we're really swinging and not steering at the ball, and maintaining the flat left wrist at least until roll time and discouraging early release when you roll too soon trying to go at the target by straightening the right arm and CF bends the left wrist.

In my opinion, just as CF uncocks the left wrist for a swinger, CF also rolls the hands to vertical for impact. If not the straightening right arm on a leash by the inert left arm will control the roll with its automatic pronation due to that action. In my opinion, just because we've turned onto plane we have to be rolled into impact and that has to be sequential release.
I also like Mike Austin's turn of the entire left arm from a muscle at the top of the shoulder, which preserves the attitude of the left wrist instead of arching it.

In the case of the snap release, we're not delaying the wrist uncocking with opposing forces in the hands, we're delaying the roll by keeping the right palm up against the backside of the plane longer and keeping the right arm from straightening.

1-L-15 says, paraphrased, basically that regardless of what the clubhead is doing, the thrust must be continued down plane to both arms straight.

Nice stuff. I was referring to the 10-20-E Non Auto Throw , the Roll of the Left Wrist off the plane as a trigger deal. What mechanism or force (cf?) uncocks #2 angle. Right Arm straightening , the check rein? Ok sure but what about guys who dont use Extensor Action or have two bent arms? Im thinking CF pulls out #2 but Ive never heard mention of it anywhere. I do employ EA and the Check Rein personally though.

Say you're in Downstroke heading to your Release Point , left wrist laying flat to plane and then you rotate the Left Wrist off the plane............given any wrist cock or #3 angle, absent of something that'll uncock the left wrist (mechanical or cf) wouldnt the club head move above plane from a DTL perspective? But it doesnt I dont think.

Start another thread. This one under Mike Austin won't get the visibility and participation it deserves.
You can't get your accumulator releases out of order.
Sure, that's one common OTT malfunction.

CF alone uncocks the left wrist for the swinger.

The shoulders' acceleration has to fall off in order to transfer momentum to the next accelerating component, arms and then hands. The right arm can't straighten until the hands (left arm) leave the right shoulder.
Notice Mike Austin's impact position. Hips and shoulders are open about equally. He hit the wall by keeping his center of mass between the feet, at least in the downswing.

10-20-E is an automatic trigger with right palm up to the plane until release. If you trigger the hands' roll to vertical before the end of the delivery line it's non-automatic.
Normally used in conjunction with a Shoulder Throw or Right Arm Throw.
What does it? Right arm straightening or CF.
Hands ahead at impact is not a release it's an aiming point and Lag, which doesn't have a release point. Everything has been released at that point, but not all accumulators are empty then either.

Use 10-20-D instead. Lynn "You really don't do yourself any favors by trying to delay the release to maximum." or something like that. Tomasello "Unfortunately people hold on too long."

Components 20 and 24 have to be used in conjunction.

"Snap releases can be either wrist uncock or hands roll or both." 10-24

Quoting Homer "Much of the mystery of the golf swing disappears when right arm participation is understood. Swinging or hitting the left arm is always swinging and the right arm is always driving." It's a question of degree, primacy, dynamic alignments and rhythm.

I just think Mike Austins throw is more Homer than people realize. Sure seems familiar to me.



Homer says that yes but is he talking true swinging again as opposed to manipulated hands swinging? And wouldnt "cf alone" rule out a Non Auto Left Wrist Throw as Lynn describes it? In 10-24-B Homer say "....the deliberate manipulation of Release (Non Automatic Trigger)....". "Deliberate manipulation" doesnt seem to square with "CF alone" to my mind. Now the manipulation is in the same direction as CF would throw out so CF takes over after being triggered, for the Swinger.

Same deal happens in 6-H-0 where he is really talking True Swinging vs Drive Loading not Swinging general vs Hitting general I believe. Gotta be careful with "hitting" and "swinging". 12-1 is a type of Hitting not Hitting general, Manipulated Hands Swinging is not True Swinging etc etc.


"Or both" ? Did Homer really say that? Wouldnt that imply Sequenced and Simultaneous at the same time? They are mutually exclusive arent they?

Definitions again. Got to make sure we have our apples and oranges separated so we can have a meaningful discussion. Somewhere along the line a lot of people started to think TGM was all about true swinging , auto snap release. Homer himself didnt play that way , he preferred Hitting or Manipulated Hands Swinging. Looks to me like maybe Mike Austin is Manipulated Hands Swinging , Non Auto Left Wrist Throw , Delayed Random Sweep Release. Nice pattern. His intention is to uncock (velocity power) it as hard as he can and then Roll. Mass times velocity squared. But I could be out to lunch again.

Well, O.B., it's been fun. I'm exhausted and signing off.

OK , sorry bud, didnt mean to go Dr Mann on you or anything.

There is "magic" somewhere
 

I went over today and got bored real quick,may need to have a rest.
So,I thought with the last few balls in the bag,I swung ALA Austin,(i hope),too shorten the story ,the balls (6ir)hit smooth as silk,so,as the heading states,there is magic somewhere,may have too take vid and looksee....
As a matter of interest,ever thought how the most natural thing to do is to "flip",could it be he found a way of putting the flip to good use,he did say somewhere that he maintained FLW or near to it at impact,but the R/wrist still unbent post impact radically or to that effect :confused1

Yeah. Mike Dunaway demonstrated that. It's baloney. Put it outta your mind.

Loren,in your opinion,where did Austin get his length,thanks again

His arms. Leaving the hands at the right shoulder as long as possible, right shoulder down, maybe adding right arm thrust on entry to the release area (bottom of the hands path where they take a left turn, reverse J), kinesiology, laying off the shaft at the top on the way down, training as a boxer, superb physical specimen, torso and shoulders.
Excellent timing. I don't attribute much power to the secret compound pivot except in support of tempo, timing, balance and clearance, the alignment it provides and it's easy on the body.
Management of centrifugal force. Precise measurement to the ball at address with no wrist cock. Forward press to check it and feel like the swing is already in motion. It's in his wheelhouse.
"Anywhere in the swing the navel (center of mass) precedes the chin by about 4-6 inches." Mike Dunaway "Get off that right knee to get the shoulder down, and put the hands about mid-right thigh."


Lots of buckets of balls. "If it isn't talkin' to you you haven't swung it." MA
We can shortcut that with educated hands.

Loren , thats an interesting observation you make about Mike Austin employing some Right Arm Thrust in Release do think he was Pushing or Pulling with the Right Arm?

Did he personally ever talk about his "power throw" as being a right arm deal? I love to see it.

Thanks
ob


Looks like he's got his right elbow in front of his right hip here anyways. Pitch Elbow. Making him a Right Arm Swinger if he's actively using the Right Arm? Pulling Longitudinally prior to his Release Throw.

Push. He had this crazy idea the he had to make the clubhead catch up to the hands. So what it really became was right arm control of roll and making his snap release non-automatic.

We saw the quick right arm in the swing sequences, IMO.

That'd make him Simultaneous Release then ? Interesting. Thanks

Thanks Loren

I love talking the Throws. Not too many players spoke in as detailed a manner as Mike Austin did about his own Throw. Seve did but thats for another day maybe. Actually there may be some similarities between the two.

Then you have the Geoff Ogilvy's , Tom Watsons and Freddy Couples of the world hitting full shots with just the right arm attached as a drill. Its a big beautiful world. Lots of shades of grey.