With the shoulders and hips fully turned, catch the naval with a right elbow pitching motion, while laterally shifting the left hip past the left foot. You will be up on your right toe as the anatomical limit of the slide is reached, the elbow will continue to it's limit, and the hips and shoulders uncoil driving the right forearm down through impact. This will give the max possible pitch elbow. You mentioned shanks from pitching the right elbow, but this won't happen if you pitch while the hips are still closed to the target.

12,

Excellent question and one that I've never seen really clarified. IMO, the pulley wheel "radius" is a function of the left arm and the club itself. Multiply the radius by 2 and you have the diameter:

(1) Sweep release with a circle delivery path: pully radius = the length of the left arm and the length of the club.

(2) Snap release with straight line delivery path: pully radius = the length of the club.

Any paths/releases in between: pully radius is somewhere between (1) and (2).

My simplistic pov.:)

CG

Interesting stuff Cometgolfer thanks.

Another perspective could be from that of the Hands and their Path in the Downstroke. The relationship to # 2 Angle Release or Throwout it entails assuming Auto Release ( I'm thinking the endless belt must be auto
)

Assuming there is a Straight Line Hand Path, the pulley wheel would be located where Straight Line ends. That is to say where Longitudinal Acceleration (which with a truly straight line Hand Path would have no, zero associated CF Throwout, theoretically) gives way to Radial Acceleration, Release (the curved hand path at the bottom of the Hand Path where CF Throws Out #2 and later #3 assuming Sequenced Release , Swinging). The Pulley's curved belt path begins at the Release Point. Its a mechanical analogy that assumes constant hand speed but doesnt diagram Longitudinal Acceleration (with the club following the hands in line) but does show a Straight Line belt path.

I like the water ski jumping analogy .....boat and skier travelling in line, longitudinally at the same speed until the boat takes the corner and throws the skier out radially and to higher speeds. #2 Release, Throwout being Velocity Power.

Uh but Im no scientist .... just a golf addict who's trying to get more Longitudinal. Bernt R though, now he is a scientist.

Bucket? He's like a total rocket surgeon with this stuff so ...... respekt. Bucket why are you talking anti circles? Its rude not to share. Come on........

I'll get some book quotes and holla back . . . . according to Homer (I think) the belt is the hands . . . let me do some searching and I'll get back witcha. Interesting I think . . .

Have a look at this . . . .

http://www.youtube.com/user/MrBatSpe.../7/0FxqPp5A06I

I'm not convinced that all this delay delay delay translates to more speed. If you check out this Mr. Batspeeds stuff . . .the cats that hit the longball (and we know chicks dig the long ball) generate the most "angular displacement of the bat" EARLYin their motion . . .

In your quote above you have correctly used the term THROWOUT . . . throwout of course being a compound word (how 'bout that) . . comprised of THROW and OUT . . . if we delay #1 elbow past navel or past where navel was at address or navel was eatin' boogers or whatever and thereby the subsequent accumulators is the club being "thrown"? Also if the right elbow remains bent that long based on 7-3 or whatever the Magic of the Right Forearm is . . . is #3 getting actuated? Is the clubhead releasing OUT to the ball (throwOUT) or is it releasing behind the hands? to me this is one of the distinctions between Hitting and Swinging

I'm not 100% on my theory but I'm not convinced that this trigger delay stuff translates to speed all things being held constant . . . could be wrong . . .

I mean Tom Watson is 60 plus and still banging it out there pretty good . . . what about JB Holmes . . .and Stricker ain't no tapper necessarily . . .

Are we all suffering from "lag envy" here?

I know I suffer from lag envy.

Re Mr Batspeed. I agree with everything he is saying and believe Homer would too. Given a true straight line hand path there is no CF (the force not the release type some guys talk about) Throwout. Law of the flail, the swingle releases and accelerates ahead of the handle without any force being applied from the hands or arms directly to it ......you cant if its a string or leather strap that connects the two pieces. Pure CF throwout. In other words no curved path, no circular motion, no CF or its throwout. And I believe Mr Batspeed's straight line then right arm participation release type is akin to Drag Loading then Drive in Homer speak.

I see him as describing a problem for batters where they go straight line too long..........something you dont see in golf where people tend to not have enough Longitudinal , Straight Line and throw it from the Top early.

I wouldnt change Stricker or Watson's Release personally. But they do Delay their Release Point for a mechanical advantage to my mind.

So Id say:

1. Given the same hand speed , lever length and assuming no slowing effect associated with lever extension: The later the Release the faster the Clubhead Speed given the Overtaking Rate discussion of 2-P and the Endless Belt pulley wheel analogy.

2. Throw in the slowing effect and the difference is bigger.

3. The same clubhead speed could be achieved by increasing the Hand Speed for the earlier Release Type.

4. Earlier Release's have a shallower Angle of Attack effecting the geometry of Impact (positively for some shots, negatively for others).

Here's where Ive been dying to go with this discussion

5. Confining ourselves to Swinging , Sequenced Release here. Can some Non Auto Release Triggers actually do more than merely Trigger Release? Can they Power the Release of #2 angle to a speed higher than CF would induce? In other words could an active , Non Auto Left Wrist Throw , vertical hammering like motion add more final clubhead speed?

If so you have a method of powering the swingle. (Some Non Auto Releases for sure just Trigger Release)

Bucket have you ever seen these?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PqKdoBVYQ9E

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KGz52...eature=related

Sounds like a Release Throw to me , not sure if its Left WRist or Right Arm but to guess Id say Left Wrist as he gets really close to demonstrating Sequenced Release , 2 then 3 at the bottom. A Non Auto Release Trigger he seems to ascribe it to the right elbow unfolding, interestingly.

You can if you freeze frame notice a Delayed Release again ......... mechanical advantage in evidence to my mind but not crazy late.


Speaking of Right Elbow Magic and where the Throw is take a look at this Yoda movie. In application the Release Point , Throw can be Delayed to a point later than illustrated , or it perhaps another stimulus/response thing?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LfdsXK06EGA


Im trying to find that video of Yoda with his wooden flail from ITC's visit to Cuscowilla. In it Yoda notes when and how early the swingle releases. Its gravity powered in the demonstration and flips over when the handle is sorta kinda opposite his side as I recall. Earlier than you would tend to think.

At the risk of stating the obvious, Homer was not all about max delay! Its an option and like all options with its own implications. But that said , Id like a little more Longitudinal . Just not sure how to get it.

Could you create more lag at #2 by creating more lag at components further up stream? Using the whip analogy. I shot a little two under par at Wailea Gold (6,650 yards) today with my Arms heavy and lagging my Shoulders. Had to get the Pivot going to do that. Probably still looked like Stricker though. Man, just a tad more Longitudinal would be nice..... please.

Damn , I also want moves like Jagger.

Overly Educated Hands
 

I am surprise Mike Austin didn't get arrested for the lesson in the first video :naughty: .

In the first video, Austin calls golf's "biggest truth" the "biggest lie". He then goes on to demo a good impact hands location past the ball as "proof" that a delayed release is bad!

I'm definitely cool with what Mike Austin said if you got sequenced release and swing on a plane angle like his . . . .

He's certainly laggy but I like what he says better than take your elbow to your navel region . . . to me if actually DO THAT . . . you better turn your grip and/or tilt back and shrink up your left arm.

Austin definitely tilted back he had some kinda device that looked like it made you do it.

Fine with this release and plane angle I reckon. Sweetspot laying on the plane releasing under rather than over.

I certainly don't have a problem with this stuff but I'm still not convinced that it translates to a mechanical advantage. I mean Watson and Stricker don't "reduce" the radius as much but they still are going from short to long which equates speed right?

I dont think the navel thing is really a Homer yellow book mandate is it? Perhaps its better attributed to someone else.

I doubt Homer would change Watson , Stricker or Furyk even. He defined the Turning Shoulder Plane for instance so it must be useful to his mind, viable. He might not start a new golfer off that way but he is on record as saying it doesnt have a mechanical disadvantage if properly executed. That is to say it (the Turning Shoulder Plane with all its constant changes in planes) would hit the ball just fine if properly executed.

If you were going to throw a club down the fairway as far as you could, you'd go radial and end over end it for sure rather than spear chuck it longitudinally. But would you do it without any longitudinal Delay? When seen on tape do guys actually throwing a club show any Longitudinal , Delay? I dunno. I suspect you would see some delay.

From 2-P Wristcock is Homer's concept of the mechanical advantage of the later release ......added velocity namely.

" ...So as the Clubhead moves from minimum to maximum radius , its Surface Speed (6-N-O) in miles per hour (MPH) increases geometrically. However , the RATE at which the Clubhead radius increases is an additional Velocity factor ---that is , its "Overtaking Rate" (6-F)". Which is dictated by Hand Speed, Trigger Delay (7-20 , 7-23) and Travel and which continues until the In-Line (6-B-0) FULL EXTENSION of the Lever Assembly (6-A) is achieved. "

Austin Powers
 

I was taking about the way he handled the female demonstrating.

He should be arrested for that also.

Listen to Ben at :56 "...now hold the angle... and at 1:00 "...get the right elbow down in front...". This is the snap release with a pitch elbow midway between the right hip bone and naval, explained and demoed in 5 secs!

http://www.bendoylegolf.com/tip18.htm

I know this may be heresy and brash . . . but just bein' honest here . . . I wouldn't take a lesson from Ben Doyle if he was givin' 'em free across the street with a whole bunch of Hooters girls in tow. Far as I'm concerned that junk has hurt more people than it has helped. Sorry Ben and West Coast Krew . . . but I can't get down with that stuff.

I had to check to see what forum I was on after reading that! I can't imagine anyone on any forum calling that swing junk. Just listen to the driver - that's some serious compression. What's not to like? And why wouldn't anyone want to copy it?

Swing is fine with me . . . just don't agree with what is being taught . . .

That swing IS what's being taught by Ben and that's one of his students.

I spent time with Ben back in 2005 and can vouch that while he may be eccentric in his own ways, he does know his golf. My updated swing with arms more out to first base.

http://http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wNh0dRcHGBw

Obviously a very nice swing, and clearly Mr. Doyle is a wonderful teacher. Everybody has their own preferences, I can't imagine playing with or teaching a swing that moves off the ball and is pivot controlled hands. Probably what Mr. Bucket meant, just not our cup of tea.

It's all about the tripod, hands controlled pivot, and The Magic Of The Right Forearm for me...

Kevin

You are lucky to have worked with Ben, I wish I were closer to So. Cal. I assume your right elbow has about the same amount of pitch as previous, which is why a belly view wasn't posted. You just added an in-to-out path, to facilitate your push draw? Will this be your "A Swing" for now? Thanks for posting.

On the contrary, in video #17 at :19, he says "you're gonna monitor through the right forefinger". In another clip, he tells him to keep his mind in his hands. Ben teaches the hands controlled pivot! Throughout these clips, Ben talks about aiming point, which implies hand control.

You are saying that the shoulder turn takeaway is pivot controlled hands, but that the pivot driving the hands in the DS is not. If the pivot executing the BS is pivot control, then the pivot executing the DS would also have to be pivot control - you can't have it both ways. If you can direct the hands to a specific location with a fanning forearm, you can also direct them there with a shoulder turn. And wherever the hands end up in the BS, in either case, the mind is in them and knows where they are, and can then instruct the pivot to deliver them to a specific aiming point.

The fact is, that if you claim that arm action independent of shoulder rotation is required in the BS for hand control, then it would require arm action independent of shoulder rotation for hand control in the DS, i.e., an arm swing, which wouldn't provide the minimum power requirements to play golf effectively.

You are taking many liberties with my post and stuffing a lot of words into my mouth. As I've always said, there is more than one way, and we all have our preferences. I've no interest in trying to change your opinions.

Kevin

So that is THE Ben Doyle model?

Is frame 3 the model?



Is this clubface postion the model? He describes "clubface to the ground" here http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=r_d08...eature=related. . . what is the rationale behind this alignment?

Lopez
 

Ray Floyd and Nancy Lopez made that move.

The precision alignments I prefer, providing plenty of power.

Attachment 2767 Attachment 2768

Attachment 2769 Attachment 2770

Hogan's got a longer lever there a driver which requires more time to release all things being equal . Which is why some Aiming Points are in front of the ball (not on the target side of the ball) for that lever length. Mine is anyways but my 910 D3 does have an open face on it.

Id take a lesson from Ben Doyle , for sure.

I cant see what his shaft looks like at Impact but Mr Doyles photos seen there raise a question for me re the Overtaking Rate: Im thinking that the factors are time or hand travel distance (from Release to Impact) and the degrees of Release (the #2 angle releasing 90 degrees say vs 80 or 70). If that's correct then you have to consider Ben Doyles shaft lean at impact when calculating his degrees of Release.

IM inventing terms here trying to explain things and I did flunk physics in high school , but Im thinking its possible to have a super late release but given tons of shaft lean at impact not have an amplified Overtaking Rate. You'd probably need to have a turned left hand grip to square the face too.....

That'd be a situation of "late but at the expense of degrees".....which reduces, perhaps negates the mechanical advantage of the late Release.

I dunno. What were we talking about again?

Hey comdpa

Whats the logic behind Arms out to first base? Im assuming you dont tee you driver ball before low point which would for an on plane swing would require the hand and arms to travel forward , down and OUT from Impact all the way to Low Point.

Or maybe you do it have teed in front of low point? Opposite the left shoulder.

Thank you for your constructive comments.

I wasn't working on the pitch elbow this week - more on the in-to-path as well as a bend in the left arm. Its not as rigid as the previous week if you notice. Ideally would like to keep my upper left arm close to parallel to ground. Yes, I agree the moves facilitates my push draw. I didn't like the "arms going left" look and feel as:

1. It facilitated pulls and made double-crossed shots a possibility.

2. It caused me to lose my spine angle, creating the occasional weak "wipe" shots.

Attached please see belly view.

http://http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oUAR8UcWMMQ

Will do so this week especially following the wonderful video posted of Ben. This is what my "practice" pitch elbow swing looks like. Sorry, no front on available.

http://http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ydN_6vrrdvQ

The logic is simple. To keep my shaft on plane and not disrupt its natural orbit by pulling the arms low and left. Note where the shaft exits in my 30 Jul swing and 16 Jul swing. Attached for your convenience. Thanks for all the comments, let's keep them coming.

http://http://www.youtube.com/watch?...eature=related

http://http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=G613x2dEnwM

I can see the additional pitch move from the DTL view. Have you hit any balls with this move yet?

With no ball in front of me I can delay my random sweep longer, something I need to do.

Homers dandelion revelation again. But Im not clear on how to pull that swing off when the ball is present. Ive tried ignoring the ball as much as I can, thinking the Three Stations ( Impact with the ball not ranking as one), thinking the "motion makes the shot". All good stuff but Im still controlling, intervening. Been doing it for years too.

Anybody have some insight on this thing? Moe talked about a "healthy indifference" . I'd consider anything, meditation, medication, surgery .....I hear they do a fine golfers labotomy in Buffalo.

Is it simply an incomplete Translation (of mechanics to feel) or a Computer programming problem , yellow book wise?

Hmm Aiming Point Procedure might help maybe? Was Homer's intention to clip the roots out beneath that dandelion?

Comdpa

When I was playing yesterday (Kapalua from the tips, ah thank you very much. How come theres no Elvis smilie faces? Frig. And please send Pro Vs) I realized that I sometimes with a driver swing my arms out to the right. Namely, when I point my plane line that way for balls played forward of low point.... The ball when positioned up there having a corresponding , Forward , IN and Up Clubhead path and requiring a Plane Line Rotation to the right to counter the fade tendency (and a clubface rotation for my slice faced driver).

If this relates to what you are describing then your camera position is slightly off angle, still set up for a straight plane line, which will warp the appearance of the clubshafts "exit" location.

I dunno maybe this isnt what you are talking about. You're for sure on a higher plane and have your grip end pointing at a plane line better Id say.

Assuming you have your mind in your hands, rather than aiming your hands at impact location, pitch your right elbow to your desired release position. For a random sweep, that position will be before the elbow catches the left hip, but I can't imagine why anyone would want to do that. Most release when the elbow catches the hip. An elite few pass the left hip and seek the naval. Managing the elbow helps by taking the focus off the ball, which helps eliminate the hit syndrome.

I have not at the moment. Am still re-wiring the computer, but I suppose I will go "operational" soon.

My issue has nothing to do with camera angle and everything to do with eliminating the hands swinging left post impact! Man, do I hate that...

Thanks MJ

Hey man do you know when mizuno is coming out with some new irons? My mp 32's are getting tired.

FYI assuming I follow you, I was talking Homers aiming point as opposed to Mr Doyles version which is more Impact Hands location than the direction of thrust of the #3pp at a point on the ARc of Approach fore or aft of the ball.

When you say "pitch your right elbow to your desired release position" are you talking about a pitching motion or the Pitch elbow position?

That makes sense to me....a blocked hip initiating release whenever the right elbow hits it. Cool. A while back I was goofing with some ass back and a hip slide with a delayed turn to clear a big hole for the bent right elbow but never took any film. Hmm I was hitting it really good then....

OB

For me to make changes, I would first have to ingrain the feel of the look. Thereafter it's about repeating the feel while hitting while not being afraid of mistakes UNTIL the computer figures out the changes / compensations to make for the new move.

Which elbow passes the left hip? Left or right? Where would the left elbow and butt cap be pointing?

Are there any pictures of this we can see?

Be aware that after getting some ball flight feedback, you may have to make some adjustments. If you listen carefully to Ben's video tips, you will hear him continually admonish the student to make a "3 dimensional" backswing. This means "deeper" - it's maybe a little bit counter-intuitive, but it actually makes the max pitch elbow much easier because you can do it with less of an independent elbow "flapping" movement, and more with the slide/ tilt(pivot).