That borders on blackmail Dave :/

Please stop editing your posts again and again and again Dave. One doesn't know how to reply and might look a fool after they do. I've never edited a post and hopefully never will.

As I said in an earlier post... I don't remember Tom using this "try to undo the bend" remark until after he went to Australia.

For most of the procedures that I remember Tom teaching... he taught the maintaining of the BENT RIGHT WRIST until well after separation.

WHEN EVER YOU MET HIM HE WOULD GIVE YOU THAT BENT WRISTED TGM HANDSHAKE.

I believe that this Australia video was related to his association with Peter Croker. Many people, by the way, like, and have been helped by Peter Croker's teaching.

The procedure I remember Tom teaching most involved an emphasis on the right forearm, a Zero shift Turned shoulder Plane(up and down), and the maintaining of the FLAT LEFT WRIST and BENT RIGHT WRIST.

For Chipping... he liked his students to freeze the BENT RIGHT WRIST.

Yoda,

I agree with your post and I guess mine is a case of feel is not real. The only thing that matters is that my left wrist is flat and the right bent at impact. Post impact, I have the Freddy, Phil look (thanks Brain!) of the right wrist flattening, just not as pronounced as those guys. I do make good impact so I am not worried. Is there a way I can work on keeping the bend in the wrist longer? Brian's swivel move seems to help, when I get it right- however, my grip is a bit stonger and sometimes my left breaks down. Any ideas?

Thanks
Mike

In my opinion....

I had never seen Tommy T. talk about golf.

I have now.

He was a VERY important person in the TGM strory and history.

And no doubt a very very very good teacher.

The videos should stay up.

People debate MY information all the time, and I am putting NEW stuff all the time.

Same for Ben....(he isn't going anywhere).

And believe it or not, people debate what Lynn teaches.

LEAVE 'EM UP.

The Series will continue
 

We are not going to pull the series. We are going to continue to have professional and courteous discussion and respect that everyone has a valid opinion and the right to express it.

Sincerely,
The Management :wink:

DelawareGolf.....i think i found something in the video.

I'm a little confused and i think its part of the controversy here and thought maybe you can help. Obviously Tom wanted a flat left and bent right at impact as he says in the series and as you quoted a page or two ago.

Someone said in video 3 around the 4:30 mark he said to try and undo the right wrist through impact, try to undo it. BUT he IMMEDIATELY said after that as long as you are clearing the left hip and rotating through this will keep you from throwing the club away which would probably be caused from the undoing the bend.

So my question is, was Tom just having some trouble communicating his concept? Because it seems like he says to undo it, but then when the left hip clears it wil keep the left wrist from breaking down.

Thank you for your contributions to this site and i hoped i worded this post as un-confrontational as possible and if you don't want to responde here please PM me or email me.

Thank you very much

jim

End of Story
 

No more comments from me relating to Tomasello.

DG

DG....thats your right i guess.

Does anyone else want to help answer my question?

Thanks

All Dressed In White Linen
 

Our loss...and yours.

thanks DG...i think you made the right decision.

:)

A 'Contenda'
 

:D

DG,

Though I have seen this tape before, the discussion is great and thought provoking. I, for one, am glad you retuned.

Thanks for sharing your Tomasello Australia experience with us.

ldeit

PS: Lynn has a tape Tom sent to me in 1992 that he may also share with us. I believe it is the one I sent to you.

Tomasello in Golf Digest
 

I met Tommy in the early 80's. When Davis Love lll was in college there was an article in Golf Digest about how he hit it so far. Davis Love Jr. and Tommy discussed his "Magic Move". I remember Tommy saying it was a tricky move, like drawing an arrow out of a quiver. Does anyone remember that article? Any comments about the "Magic Move"? I thought it was interesting that Tommy influenced Davis Love Jr.'s teaching.

Tommy does actually go into the "drawing an arrow out of a quiver" in one of these clips. Dave would be able to tell you where it was exactly for sure. It's just as you said it was in the book.

Re: Tomasello in Golf Digest
 

.................................................. .................................................. .......

Tom lived in Atlanta for some time. He probably met Davis then.

I think Tom got the "drawing an arrow out of a quiver" right from 10-19-C-- Drag Loading.

If my memory is correct, that sub-section of the Golf Digest article was a debate (panel discussion) by a few golf professional (mostly those on the Golf Digest Advisory Staff) on what they thought allow Davis Love III to hit the ball so far.

Lagster is correct on the 10-19-C.

Thanks for the replies, and thanks for this forum. It's really helping me understand the TGM.

After listening to my Tomasello 3 day school audio tapes....the Magic Move mentioned above....it's the "Magic of the Right Forearm". Tommy had a very specific why of teaching it. It's indirectly mentioned in Davis Love Jr's book "How to Feel a Real Golf Swing" in the discussion about how Davis Love III learned to drive a ball 350 yards. I highly recommend the book...

Another point about the "Magic Move" being tricky....it takes some getting use to the right forearm starting the downswing.

It's interesting that the "Magic of the Right Forearm" didn't appear in the book until the 6th edition. I know Tomasello was working with Homer at the time the 5th edition came out. Just don't know the exact date that Tommy made his first phone call to Homer.

Books to checkout with the right arm involved with swinging:

Mark Evershed's "The Golf Solution"
Davis Love Jr's/Bob Toski "How to Feel a Real Golf Swing"
John Jacob's "Practical Golf"
Ernie Els "How to Build a Classic Golf Swing"


All of the texts mention above are in line the Magic of the Right Forearm approach that Tommy taught...active arms and quite body (responding pivot).

DG

Tomasello
 

A story about meeting Tommy. I was an assistant pro at a course about 15 min. from the course where he was teaching. He was playing in the group behind me one day. Afterwards in the bar he walked up and said "pro, you play pretty good, but you have no idea what it is you are trying to do! He set a book of matches on the bar and demonstrated the impact interval (open face, inside aft quadrant of the ball). He shook my hand, bent his right wrist back and said "left wrist is flat never bent, right wrist is bent never flat". He showed me throwaway and called it "cancer". He showed me that the right arm cocks and uncocks the left wrist. Pretty good free lesson while sitting at a bar! While i did include these ideas in my playing and teaching,I regret not learning more. Tommy was very enthusiastic and a nice guy.

DG:
I think I know the answer, but I'd like to be sure.

After the right forearm starts the downswing, is it correct to say that the body immediately and simultaneously responds to this action (action of right forearm)? In other words, the body does NOT remain frozen. Thanks.

Yes, the body responds to the action of the right forearm.....Tommy's teaching was based on the Magic of the Right Forearm. I believe on the Australia video tape series you really have to search for it.....it's in one sentence that Tommy says the left hip responds to the action of the right forearm.....Go to the Lee Deitrick "Letter video" series and you'll hear Tommy talking about it again (body responding to the uncocking of the right elbow through the muscles of the right forearm, see 6-B-2-0). On my audio lesson tapes from my three day school, Tommy constantly talks about the body responding to the right forearm.

I believe there is more magic in the "Magic of the Right Forearm" (per 7-3) then most understand and/or believe. Tom Tomasello understood the magic completely.

If you don't have a copy of Tom Tomasello's 1991 Golf Illustrated interview, I can send you an electronic copy. Please provide your regular email address.

DG

Different Strokes-Different Physics
 

The Right Forearm, component 7-3, is critical in ALL Major Basic Strokes. The stroke explained by TT is a 3 Barrel Hit stroke or MAYBE a Right Arm Swing. Each use the folding and unfolding of the Right Arm to cock and uncock the left wrist unlike a Swing Stroke that uses momentum transfer, 2-K, and a definite PULL to ignite CF in a pure throw-out action of Accumulators 2 and 3. Does a Swing Stroke still employ 7-3, the Magic of the Right Forearm? OF COURSE. All Strokes performed correctly in The Golfing Machine World employs MRF.

The Magic is present whether you swing an inert right arm or actively push the right arm. The Magic of 7-3 is in the Right Elbow action that controls or powers the Flying Wedges on an incline plane for three-dimensional impact. DOWNOUTTHROUGH. So simply.

I do feel that when one says the first move is for the right elbow to re-establish itself before the body moves or that the body only moves after the right forearm lowers or saying that there is no hip bump to start the stroke without CLEARLY indicating that the stroke does not use a pulling action or momentum transfer of the pivot to accelerate a CF Throw-Out action is failing to explain the stroke properly. And to say that Momentum Transfer, a hip bump and any pulling action is the wrong way to impact a golf ball is not the way to teach TGM.

A 3 Barrel Hit is a nice stroke, TT teaches a wonderful way the strike a ball. But some fail to clearly indicate the difference between the physics of the strokes and dismiss any other TGM way.

There is a "hip bump" or clearing of the hip in both hitting and swinging. There must be, or there will be round housing. As of now, I believe Tomasello is saying the action of the right forearm sets off this motion of the hips (perfectly in line with chapter 5). For me, the point of emphasis in my question was "the body IMMEDIATELY....responds (to the action of the right forearm)."

As for the right forearm power in a swinging procedure, that is toughie, as unfortunately, niether, Mr. Kelley or Mr. Tomasello are with us. That said, I've seen the results of Lynn Blake and Ted Fort, and I do believe the results of DG.

agree but...
 

I was not trying to answer your question. I have asked about that very point several times and just got the "read this, watch that."

I did have a few points:

If the stroke is a 3 Barrel Hit pattern then Momentum Transfer is not used. A CF swinger would. They will need a start down that is from the bottom up- a linear pulling on the shaft. TT’s stroke does not need a pulling action to generate throw-out. The arm CAN start the stroke and the body responses, althought I agree that some weight shift from Hula Hula is needed. This has not been clearly explained that different physics propel the club and that this way is the only right way.

Years ago, this was called a Right Arm Swing by dg before he called it the Magic of the Right Forearm. When it was the Right Arm swing, it was claimed that almost every Tour player, Ernie Els for one, was a right Arm Swinger because they used Harvey Penick’s Magic Move. Penick’s MM was a coordinated move of the arms/hands and the hip bump. Both moved at the same time.

I agree that the body responses to the Hands or to 7-3, if you like, but the response can be trained. It does not mean the 7-3 actively needs to ‘push start' the hip action. The stock answer to me has always been the any hip motion, lateral bump BEFORE the action of the right forearm is incorrect. The gear train starts from the body up. Hula Hula allows for independent motion. Hula Hula is not a mere slide. If anyone thinks that, the concept is lost on them.

Last point is that that 7-3 is NOT a procedure but a component that ALL Strokes NEED. The Magic of 7-3 goes beyond moving the left arm (which not inactive- but that’s another issue later), it controls and powers all strokes on an incline plane.

Okay, this is the last point, TT is not wrong. I love the motion. But some of the analysis by others about his stroke missed the mark.

My understanding agree with Mike.

5-0 I believe is the Engine and Core to TGM. The body need to respond some way in order for the pressure point to move in some ways - in a nutshell.

Thus no matter what .. Zone 1 , 2 , 3 have to be trained . But the accuracy of execution depends on 5-0 and thus the level of education of the hands.

Magic Straws
 

Just Grabbin At Straws......humorous At Best.


No Debating Coming From Me. Don't Need To Anymore, It's A Waste Of My Time. WE HAVE RECEIVED THE TRUTH FROM TOM TOMASELLO.

ONLY MAGIC TO EXECUTE.....

IF YOU WANT TO LEARN THE MAGIC JUST CONTACT ME FOR A COPY OF THE TOMASELLO INTERVIEW. :salut:

A 1,000 distributed to date and counting....

DG

I don't expect you to EVER answer a question about YOUR analysis of TT stroke. NOR DO I ASK FOR IT. 7-3 is not a procedure but a component used by every stroke and is taught throughout TGMdom. It is not accumulator #1.

When you execute TT's stroke pattern- no PULL is needed- just throw the right arm and let the body move according- a nice stroke pattern. But it isn't the only way to move a club and your failure to fully disclose this narrows the education a TGM student can achieve.

For those that do use 7-3 (and who doesn’t) with momentum transfer to release the right shoulder gyro- a pull is needed. So to say that a lateral bump is all wrong is misleading. As is calling Hula Hula just a hip slide.

I have no problem with what TT teaches but how it is explained by you for so so so so many years.

Tomasello And The Truth
 

See.....what Tomasello Taught Is The Truth......thanks All For Confirming. MIKE BENDER, MARK EVERSHED, PETER CROKER.....and on and on. Oh YEAH, ERNIE ELS, DAVIS LOVE III, RETIEF GOOSEN, and the list is growing.....

IT USED TO BE POT SHOTS AT TOMASELLO....NOW THERE AT ME. HUMOROUS....I ONLY SPEAK WHAT TOMMY TAUGHT>>>>>>NOW THAT I HAVE TRANSFERED MY AUDIO CASSETTES TO CD....NO WORRIES NOW IN DAMAGING THE ASSETS. LET THE TRUTH BE TOLD......it's ALL MAGIC....THE MAGIC OF THE RIGHT FOREARM......YEEEEEEEEEE HAWWWWWWWWWWWWWWW.


THE MAGIC OF THE RIGHT FOREARM IS WAY TO EXECUTE BOTH 12-1-0 and 12-2-0. FOR THOSE WHO KNOW AND UNDERSTAND THE MAGIC.


DG

Dude- your cap lock is on

Savin Time With Cap Locks.....
 

AN "A" FOR OBSERVATION. I DON'T GIVE OUT "A"s WITHOUT HIGH MERIT.

Homer Said It Was Simple...
 

Detractors---and there have been many---condemn the system as hopelessly complex and impossible to put into practical use. A. J. Tomasello is one of the very few who have been able to break down the intimidating array of physical laws into a few basic movements that, far from being impossible, can leave a student asking “Can the golf swing really be this simple?" Tomasello conveys Kelley’s message with a spryness and energy more often found in a college sophomore than a senior citizen. And what a golf swing he has himself. :salut:

Golf Illustrated July 1991

As I have posted too many times- my issue is not with Tom. I have no problem with the stroke pattern TT developed and teaches. But to call it the truth in relationship to the other stroke patterns Homer Kelley presents among the thousands of ways components can be developed is a bit narcissist. If you want TGM to be one way, your way- and without question called The Truth – you disregard the essence of Homer’s Book.

The Truth
 

THE TRUTH WILL PREVAIL.......

SURE THERE ARE OTHER WAYS OF SWINGING A GOLF CLUB.....HOWEVER, IN TOMASELLO'S WORDS HE TAUGHT "....the most EFFICIENT, centrifugal force golf swing." NOT THE ONLY SWING...

DG

Well put DG.
I think you and 6B make some very good points.
Thanks go out to both of you.

Would it be correct to say this start down can occur through maintaining the correct feel in the hands and making the brain aware of the correct plane line that must be traced? I'll have to go back and study the training of zone 1 (I know it is mentioned). But part of me (now) says you don't have to train your body to make the movements to pick up your keys or to reach for a cup of coffee. Thanks.

I'm heading to work- I'll get back to you on a few points. I will start a new thread since this is the Tomasello Tape thread.

The difference between reaching for keys or coffee and the movement of the body in a G.O.L.F. stroke is that reaching is not an athletic move.
More later.

Grounds for seperation
 

De-Caf anyone?

A long time ago
 

You certainly did have to train your body to pick up your keys or reach for a cup. It was just so long ago youve forgotten. Now its instinctive and you reinforce it everyday.

Watch a new baby with its rattle and toys they are training their body, hands, arms, fingers.

I know a guy who suffered a stroke and he had to retrain his body completely to do things we take for granted. One of the hardest things for him was learning to use a knife and fork again.

Unfortunately most of us were not introduced to golf at an early enough age to make the movements instinctive.

Heck yes, (and more yes) I'd go right along with the need to educate, and continue to educate the hands, arms, and fingers. I just wonder if you completely and absolutely "get the body" with the hand education (talking of golf stroke only). I think this is what Tomasello is screaming.? Wouldn't other alternatives (no matter how small or slight) venture into the realm of pivot controlled hands?