Yoda,
This really intrigues me. Where will you get the 'test subjects'? To do this well, you might actually have to use one person on swinging and compare to another person hitting...which then raises issues. I'm not sure one individual can do both equally well since the differences in the two motions are both subtle and not so subtle.

Ted switched me to hitting a year and a half ago....now I'm not a great player but I have a 1.8 index (down from roughly 3 when I first came to Ted..go Ted!) What I've found is a) on the course I swit probably 50% of the time... it is hard to eliminate cf and it doesn't take much to overpower the right triceps b)I 'think' I can generate slightly more clubhead speed swinging....but again I don't hit or swing optimally all the time (ever? might be more correct when referring to optimal) and I can't pivot well enough swinging to keep the ball in the same zipcode. In my very limited experience I find it hard to believe that there is someone who can, on command, switch and optimally execute both stroke patterns.... and I believe opimal is necessary because some of the differences are subtle. Although, I await anxiously ANY feedback that comes from the TPI experience, as I'm running out of time (just speaking for my 59 yr. old self) and still need tons of help.

YES, YOU CAN SWITCH FROM BOTH PATTERNS ON COMMAND AND GENERATE OPTIMAL SHOTS (just watch the Tomasello videos (I also think Tommy developed his playing and teaching approach around moving between hitting and swinging with ease and moving between the different hinge actions with ease too), I believe Yoda can hit and swing equally as well too). However, I swing more than I hit. I don't I need to incorporate more hitting (hitting stroke pattern) with my irons to achieve MORE accuracy. The right arm swinging stroke pattern I learned from Tomasello has all of the accuracy I need (almost holed a 7 iron from 160 yards last weekend, ball mark was two inches from the cup). I mainly use hitting with full shots for distance control and sometimes spinning the ball left to right on the green towards the pin. So, I use hitting as a strategic asset rather than as a primary stroke pattern.

On audio tape, I have Tomasello commenting on his game from a personal journal entry....to paraphrase the comment "striking the ball as good as ever and shooting par or better". The "shooting par or better" is a direct quote, I don't think it gets better than that...


DG

If strong..
 

No need for all that research, I can tell you the answer now :eyes: "If strong - Hit. If quick - Swing. If both - do either. Or both."

There is a very nice telephone conversation on the Croker site between you and Homer (on the phone) is which he says "As soon as he has mastered swinging, he should immediately tackle the hitting." "A real artist should know both of them, as they're
not much different from each other..". "..like an artist using different brushes.." It's called TGM_Tom_Tomasello_ Lynn_ Blake_Homer_ Kelley.mp3 (11,148KB although obviously the conversation continues). Very interesting to listen too. I feel like I know Homer a little. (And you too :)! )

Proving What We Know
 

We have only one day, and the test subjects must come from our own group. So, the definitive proofs and samples necessary for a doctoral thesis or professional journal White Paper are a bit much to hope for. However, I will be pleased if we are able to quantify, however loosely, the very definite difference in the physics of the two actions.

Homer Kelley contended that Hitting and Swinging seemed "equally efficient" but also that they "do not mix." We will bring the resources of TPI and the Mastermind of those assembled to bear on those statements made so long ago. If we are at all successful, we may be able to contribute something new.

you will find higher smash factors on average more often with hitting, this has been my experience with multiple launch monitor fittings.

Also, if done correctly i believe you should be able to swing just as fast using either hitting or swinging.

Lynn,

Thanks for that statement.... Given the many differences in technique (at least what appear to be many differences for a newbie like me) I did think it almost impossible to mix them sucessfullly during a round. I started out swinging, Ted switched me, and now on very rare occasions when I try to 'swing' (ONLY on the range)I have lots of trouble. Now, if I'd been working on both patterns for 15-20 yrs. I'd be pretty sure I could execute both...on the range, I'm not sure I'd be so sucessful on the course.

More On the Swinger's Right Arm
 

I may not have made Homer's position clear, psheehan. He felt that all players so inclined should learn both procedures and be able to use them interchangeably during a round. What he cautioned against was mixing Hitting and Swinging Components in a single Basic Stroke Pattern. Most especially, attempting to add the Hitter's Right Arm Thrust to a Centrifugal Force Swing.

Over time, he came to the conclusion that the use of the #1 Accumulator (Right Elbow) to actively drive the Club through Release and Impact was incompatible with the Swinger's Centrifugal procedure. In other words, Centrifugal Force wants to go only 'so fast,' and if you use the Right Triceps in an attempt to make it go faster (through Radial, not Longitudinal, Acceleration), it resists the attempt. Not only is there no power gain, there is actually a power loss. Worst of all, precision alignments scatter like jackstraws.

The problem we have here, though, is that the Swinger does feel a lot of Right Arm, even though it is passive as a Stroke Driver. It picks up the Rotation of the Body (specifically, the Right Shoulder) and senses the Pull of Longitudinal Acceleration (Accelerating the Club lengthwise) created by that Momentum Transfer as Clubhead Lag Pressure Point Pressure (in the #3 Pressure Point, the Right Hand index finger). He then uses the Right Forearm and #3 Pressure Point Pressure (the Basic Thrust of the Stroke) in an 'underhand Pitch' motion -- I personally think of it as 'sidearm' because the motion must be on the Inclined Plane -- to Trace the Delivery Line in the Downstroke and to deliver a stiff-wristed Slap through Impact (the Major Basic Stroke per 7-3 and 10-3-B). All this while maintaining Right Triceps Extensor Action (whose Pressure is exerted at Pressure Point #1, the heel of the Right Hand against the Left Hand thumb). No wonder Hogan wrote that he wanted "three right hands" at Impact!

In the end, by Homer's own statement, "there isn't all that much difference between the two...". Hitters and Swingers share one Geometry (of the circle) but the nature of their Right Arm participation differentiates their physics (of Rotation). Hence, there are two basic Strokes, i.e., two separate and distinct ways to move the Golf Club: You can Push the Clubshaft Radially with Muscular Thrust or Pull the Clubshaft Longitudinally with Centrifugal Force. On any given Stroke, you can do one or the other. But avoid attempting both at the same time, because...

That way lies sorrow.

More than Extensor Action
 

Could this be the "secret" of using Right Arm Thrust when Swinging? That is, using your Right Arm to Accelerate the Club Longitundinally (lengthwise).

Right Arm And Left Arm Swings
 

Using the Right Arm to Accelerate the Club Longitudinally is the classic Right Arm Swing. The procedure I've described above is Left Arm Swing (because the center of the Clubhead Arc remains at the Left Shoulder, i.e., it is not transferred to the Right Elbow).

Again, though, we have a both a semantics and 'feel versus real' problem here. That's because, while the Right Arm is active in a Right Arm Swing (and also in a Right Arm Hit), the Left Arm is not active in a Left Arm Swing. Instead, it is essentially inert and provides only a structural contribution (as part of the Primary Lever Assembly and the Radius of the Stroke). It is Accelerated by the rotational transfer of the Body's momentum (in contrast to its Acceleration in the Right Arm Swing by the right triceps). And the Lag Pressure thus produced -- and which drives the Club -- is sensed in the Right Hand's #3 Pressure Point. Hence, a strong Right Hand Feel in a Left Arm Stroke.

"The mystery of the Mechanics of Golf fades away when Right Arm participation is understood."

-- Homer Kelley (1-F)

Right Arm Swing and Hitting
 

Both of my procedures feel different...right arm swing and right arm hit.

You guys can talk about the right triceps all you want...my main focus is on the right forearm...The Magic of the Right Forearm.

DG