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-   -   Spine (http://www.lynnblakegolf.com/forum/showthread.php?t=1080)

loubert 06-12-2005 03:37 PM
Re: Spine
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by lagster
Mr. Hardy seems to indicate that the One Plane Swing(by his definition) is easier on the back and shoulders.

It seems to me, however, that if one is bent over more, and has more aggressive rotation of the hips and shoulders... this would be more strenuous for the back.
You're right...in both cases!

The key is to think "easier" or "strenuous" on the back in two parts. One is the mechanical structure of the spine* itself and the other is the muscles of the back.**

The neutral spine requires your back and other core muscles to maintain this position. Bending over into golf address increases the difficulty of maintaining this posture. Then the forces generating by swinging the club will make it even harder to keep neutral. This is strenuous for the back muscles, but as with any strength training, becomes easier as the muscles are developed.

However, if you can maintain the posture, the spine structure is protected from going beyond its normal range-of-motion or load limits. This is where we really hurt our backs (herniate disks, muscle spasms, etc.). Thus it is easier on the back from this perspective.

On the other hand, a rounded back posture at address*** will feel easier on the back muscles, which are asked to do a lot less, but the load will be passed along to other places such as the lower back. Over time, the repetitive nature of golf becomes very strenuous for the spine structure.

Lou

*the bones, ligaments, joints, discs, etc.
**even better to think of all the muscles of the core (back, abs, etc.)
***this is spine flexion...spine extension (think reverse-c follow-through) is bad for the same reasons

Bigwill 06-12-2005 05:46 PM
Re: Spine
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by loubert

You're right...in both cases!

The key is to think "easier" or "strenuous" on the back in two parts. One is the mechanical structure of the spine* itself and the other is the muscles of the back.**

The neutral spine requires your back and other core muscles to maintain this position. Bending over into golf address increases the difficulty of maintaining this posture. Then the forces generating by swinging the club will make it even harder to keep neutral. This is strenuous for the back muscles, but as with any strength training, becomes easier as the muscles are developed.

However, if you can maintain the posture, the spine structure is protected from going beyond its normal range-of-motion or load limits. This is where we really hurt our backs (herniate disks, muscle spasms, etc.). Thus it is easier on the back from this perspective.

On the other hand, a rounded back posture at address*** will feel easier on the back muscles, which are asked to do a lot less, but the load will be passed along to other places such as the lower back. Over time, the repetitive nature of golf becomes very strenuous for the spine structure.

Lou

*the bones, ligaments, joints, discs, etc.
**even better to think of all the muscles of the core (back, abs, etc.)
***this is spine flexion...spine extension (think reverse-c follow-through) is bad for the same reasons

I think that I misunderstood the lack of effort found in the rounded posture as being completely relaxed. As a result, I tweaked my back. I've been working on maintaining a neutral spine the last week or so, as well as really keeping my chin up.

Bigwill 06-12-2005 05:57 PM
Re: Spine
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by loubert

You're right...in both cases!

The key is to think "easier" or "strenuous" on the back in two parts. One is the mechanical structure of the spine* itself and the other is the muscles of the back.**

The neutral spine requires your back and other core muscles to maintain this position. Bending over into golf address increases the difficulty of maintaining this posture. Then the forces generating by swinging the club will make it even harder to keep neutral. This is strenuous for the back muscles, but as with any strength training, becomes easier as the muscles are developed.

However, if you can maintain the posture, the spine structure is protected from going beyond its normal range-of-motion or load limits. This is where we really hurt our backs (herniate disks, muscle spasms, etc.). Thus it is easier on the back from this perspective.

On the other hand, a rounded back posture at address*** will feel easier on the back muscles, which are asked to do a lot less, but the load will be passed along to other places such as the lower back. Over time, the repetitive nature of golf becomes very strenuous for the spine structure.

Lou

*the bones, ligaments, joints, discs, etc.
**even better to think of all the muscles of the core (back, abs, etc.)
***this is spine flexion...spine extension (think reverse-c follow-through) is bad for the same reasons

I think that I misunderstood the lack of effort found in the rounded posture as being completely relaxed. As a result, I tweaked my back. I've been working on maintaining a neutral spine the last week or so, as well as really keeping my chin up.

lagster 06-12-2005 06:29 PM
Degree of Spine Tilt
 
So... are some of you saying that you believe the more bent over posture is ACTUALLY BETTER for the back as long as the SPINE ANGLE is kept throughout the STROKE?

It seems to me that the more Upright Stroke(with less bent over posture), that requires less rotation, would cause less shearing of the back or spine. Good Posture, of course with the Upright Stroke (Two Planer) is also important.

A very, strong, young person, of course, can do about what ever they want, for a while. Over time, if too much trauma has been placed on their back(Trevino etc.) the backs will start to hurt.

Maybe the Neutral Spine, and core strength is the Key?

loubert 06-13-2005 02:11 AM
Re: Degree of Spine Tilt
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by lagster
So... are some of you saying that you believe the more bent over posture is ACTUALLY BETTER for the back as long as the SPINE ANGLE is kept throughout the STROKE?
I am not a medical professional of any kind. I am just a golfer that hurt his back. I am saying that the therapists that I've talked to indicate that a NEUTRAL SPINE is better than a ROUNDED BACK. In golf, maintaining a neutral spine position makes one look "more bent over" compared with the typical golfer.

Do a google search with: "rounded back" golf injury

Quote:
Originally Posted by lagster
It seems to me that the more Upright Stroke(with less bent over posture), that requires less rotation, would cause less shearing of the back or spine. Good Posture, of course with the Upright Stroke (Two Planer) is also important.
For a moment, let's decouple the degree of forward spine tilt from the concept of one- and two-plane swings. Instead, let's focus only on neutral spine. Use a mirror or video as a monitoring device. While keeping neutral spine, properly ground your club. How far did you have to bend over?

Now, bringing back the one/two plane comparison, does it look like a one or two plane setup? Next setup with a club in a two plane address and then look in the mirror. Is the back rounded? Have you maintained good posture?

Quote:
Originally Posted by lagster
Maybe the Neutral Spine, and core strength is the Key?
The whole biomechanical picture of the golf swing is complex. You need flexibility. It is really hard to maintain neutral spine if you have tight hamstrings. Hip flexor flexibility is also important in spinal movement. You need stability. This is where the core is so important. You need strength...and so on!

Lou

Some links that may be of interest:
http://www.yourgolffitnesscoach.com/...howPage/14280/
http://www.daxmoy-pts.co.uk/articles/golf.htm

jim_0068 06-13-2005 09:26 AM
After going to a PT about my rotator cuff/shoulder popping issue, the main thing we worked on was getting into a better "athletic" posture that didn't distrupt a proper "golf" posture.

Basically what Manzella has on his site for his setup article is pretty much spot on.

The only things he changed was:

-Shoulders BACK AND DOWN in their sockets....this is important. You want to feel like you're almost squeezing your pecs to get your arms to the ball. This helps with distributing the load of impact further across your body vs a few select spots (like my shoulder)
-Engage my abs and lower back just a hair more to "pre-load" the swing and impact.
-Keep the more chin up and eyes down look.

Thats it....

hcw 06-14-2005 07:01 AM
Re: my stance on stance
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by 6bmike
Build an A frame not a K frame.
seen this 2-3 times in the past week but must have missed the initial explanation...could someone expound?...thanks in advance!

-hcw

6bmike 06-14-2005 08:16 AM
Re: my stance on stance
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by hcw
Quote:
Originally Posted by 6bmike
Build an A frame not a K frame.
seen this 2-3 times in the past week but must have missed the initial explanation...could someone expound?...thanks in advance!

-hcw
An A frame will have far less axis tilt to the right with higher hands at mid-body. The mid hand position allows the shaft and right forearm to align nicely and facilitate the right forearm take-away. Head, spine, hands will all be between the legs. Solid as an A frame. Stuart Appleby has a nice A frame.

The K frame has lower hands and an excessive tilt to the right. Built for a big shoulder turn and widely used by long distance types and taught as address by many.

If the Magic is the Right Forearm then the Right Forearm Take-Away is the wand.

golfingrandy 06-14-2005 04:20 PM
Re: Spine
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by lagster
Let us hear (read) some ideas about how SPINE POSITIONS at Address... Face On and Down the Line can influence a golf stroke. Include degree of tilt, bend, posture, etc..
Nice question.

Forgive me if this has already been answered (to lazy to read all the posts).

Face on KEY!!!!!!!!!!!! Tripod!!

Tilt, bend or whatever one desires to call it. Depending on the club and if you strive to setup with the right forearm on plane at address, will effect the amount of bend at address. I will allow others to explain how this effected step by step. With that being said, note pics in book of plane and the hand locations.

What are the measuring devices in The Golfing Machine? First, there are none but always remember that Impact Fix gives clear guidance of where YOU need to be.

Later.

Randy

lagster 06-14-2005 04:21 PM
Re: Degree of Spine Tilt
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by loubert
Quote:
Originally Posted by lagster
So... are some of you saying that you believe the more bent over posture is ACTUALLY BETTER for the back as long as the SPINE ANGLE is kept throughout the STROKE?
I am not a medical professional of any kind. I am just a golfer that hurt his back. I am saying that the therapists that I've talked to indicate that a NEUTRAL SPINE is better than a ROUNDED BACK. In golf, maintaining a neutral spine position makes one look "more bent over" compared with the typical golfer.

Do a google search with: "rounded back" golf injury

Quote:
Originally Posted by lagster
It seems to me that the more Upright Stroke(with less bent over posture), that requires less rotation, would cause less shearing of the back or spine. Good Posture, of course with the Upright Stroke (Two Planer) is also important.
For a moment, let's decouple the degree of forward spine tilt from the concept of one- and two-plane swings. Instead, let's focus only on neutral spine. Use a mirror or video as a monitoring device. While keeping neutral spine, properly ground your club. How far did you have to bend over?

Now, bringing back the one/two plane comparison, does it look like a one or two plane setup? Next setup with a club in a two plane address and then look in the mirror. Is the back rounded? Have you maintained good posture?

Quote:
Originally Posted by lagster
Maybe the Neutral Spine, and core strength is the Key?
The whole biomechanical picture of the golf swing is complex. You need flexibility. It is really hard to maintain neutral spine if you have tight hamstrings. Hip flexor flexibility is also important in spinal movement. You need stability. This is where the core is so important. You need strength...and so on!

Lou

Some links that may be of interest:
http://www.yourgolffitnesscoach.com/...howPage/14280/
http://www.daxmoy-pts.co.uk/articles/golf.htm
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>

Good information!!

The tests on the first link look good.
Many golfers are probably trying to do things that their bodies will not, or do not want to do!!!


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