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Quote:

Originally Posted by 12 piece bucket

9-1 ZONE 1 . . . The Pivot involves twisting the body and shifting the weight during the Stroke so as to maintain balance, a motionless head and any required tilt of the torso.

Thanks, Bucket. The references you have isolated in your past two posts prove the importance Homer Kelley accorded the Stationary Head.

The selected quote above is one of my favorites:

"The Pivot involves twisting the body..."

One of the reasons Golfers fail to execute a Centered Pivot is because it is far easier to Slide than to Twist. Most Golfers are too lazy to Twist. It takes work.

And so they Slide instead.

"[Swaying] is usually an attempt to replace the Pivot in working toward a Turn and a Weight Shift." -- Homer Kelley

I reviewed a few videos I got, namely, Golf my way by Jack Nicklaus video; How to build a Classic Swing by Ernie Els and Ben Hogan DVD by Jim Mclean.

I heard so many time “Head still…..”
See Els's head in the capture top down view:-
http://bb4.babyhome.com.tw/UPLOAD6/9...4634.37637.jpg

On the other hand, the golf swing in the Hogan at older age video really moved "a lot" to the right but when i put it on V1 solfware, he definely returned his head to near address position through impact with quite active lower body movement.

Is flexibility an issue?

Great Post 12 Piece Bucket. May I add that 'word for word' these quotes can be found dating back to the First Edition (except the definitions which were added to later Editions).

Quote:

Originally Posted by Yoda

Birdie,

With all due respect to your love of The Golfing Machine and your participation on this site -- which, by the way, I appreciate sincerely -- have you bought the book yet?

Oh ya Lynn....I've had the book for more than a year now....it's highlited from front to back. Are there some important resources you think I should read relating to this? (if you're suggesting I've missed some important things)

I mean, I don't know it as well as you....but I know it not bad.

Quote:

And regarding Homer Kelley and his consideration of the Head Pivot Center...

Yes, he thought about it.

A lot.

And he specifically referenced it -- Bucket, run your search and tell us how many times -- and deliberately chose it over the 'point-between-the-shoulders' alternative (mentioned once and as just that, a deliberately rejected alternative).

Aha....I may have missed this. I need to check this out.

(I still will decide for myself though)

In my opinion, it is counterintuitive to state that there is a sensory advantage to using the head pivot center, and yet still you (and Mr. Kelley) allow the head (and eyes) to rotate.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Yoda

My message has been consistent. Why then, is there any perception to the contrary?

Quote:

There is no mystery:

To serve his own agenda, one self-avowed "competitor" has assigned me the uncompromising doctrine "Head dead still and precisely between the feet." Homer and I get one location in time and space, and he gets everywhere else. Ridiculous.

So, your quote above is not true, and if you want to know exactly where I stand on this G.O.L.F. subject -- or any other for that matter -- then read my posts. All 4,000 some-odd of them. My positions are there, clearly-stated and available at the click of your mouse.

Meanwhile, beware the self-serving misrepresentations of another.

But that's a lot of reading to do...

If it were this simple all the while.....why all the confusion.....it would've been all pretty easy to clear up if you just said this was all a misunderstanding and we just pigeon holed you in some wrong way....no?

I mean....maybe you said it....but man if that's the case you need make that clear (as many times as it takes)....(at the top of your lungs)....maybe I missed it...maybe it got lost in the debate.....I dunno.

...

There are 2 things in my mind:

-what you advocate (and is only one thing, all the time?)
-and why? (including how it works and why it works)

The first needs to be clear....and the second is the part that is more debateable.

My guess is that the other teacher thinks it's important enough to continue bringing up.

Quote:

Homer Kelley was all about golfers on golf courses, not golfers in the lab.

Not sure I understand. Homer learned a lot in his "lab"....it's not irrelevant in the least.

Are you suggesting then that we should consider "what just works better?" (on the course)

That's one thing to consider of course....but you can't ignore principle either. (which I'm sure you'd agree with)

Quote:

Originally Posted by Yoda

No, Birdie, the photos in the Scott sequence were not "altered." They were rotated approximately one degree toward the horizontal in order to remove the sloped bias of the original tilted camera angle. All Stroke relationships were unchanged.

Ok so that's HOW they have been altered. (no?)

Sorry if "altered" comes off as a strong word....I don't want to say you're trying to neccessarily fool us....you made it clear you changed them....so that's good.

I'm just saying....

Is the camera just crooked? or is the ground actually sloped on an uphill? how much did he compensate? (with regards to head position) did he compensate?

Dunno.

Quote:

And the only reason I did that was to counter the absurd analysis of the aforementioned "competitor." The day after I posted the sequence here as an example of the Head-Centered Pivot, he chose to use the exact same sequence on his site as an argument against it. As "proof," he drew reference lines -- I had drawn none -- purportedly perpendicular to the horizontal plane, i.e., the ground. In fact, given the slope bias, those lines were not perpendicular, and when I exposed that error, his argument collapsed.

As it should have

Okok so he (apparently) made a mistake. (in not noticing the ground was sloped)

All I'm saying....is that apparently (after hearing all this)....this is one picture....and not a good one to judge either, I think.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Yoda

The selected quote above is one of my favorites:

"The Pivot involves twisting the body..."

One of the reasons Golfers fail to execute a Centered Pivot is because it is far easier to Slide than to Twist. Most Golfers are too lazy to Twist. It takes work.

And so they Slide instead.

Are they too lazy to twist tho? Or are they untrained? I can't pivot properly left handed no matter how much effort I put into it. (even on lazy days)

Quote:

"[Swaying] is usually an attempt to replace the Pivot in working toward a Turn and a Weight Shift." -- Homer Kelley

I agree for beginners sometimes....but what about tour players who sway a bit? These guys can pivot.

So is it choice? or coincidence? or is it taught? or is it natural?

Quote:

Originally Posted by Smithers

In my opinion, it is counterintuitive to state that there is a sensory advantage to using the head pivot center, and yet still you (and Mr. Kelley) allow the head (and eyes) to rotate.

Well, Mike Finney, my sense of sight and balance, not to mention my hearing, smell and taste -- are all located in my Head. And 'touch' also filters through there on its way to recognition by me. To my mind, that's a pretty good reason to view the Head as Command Central for the senses and as a pretty important resource when striking a Golf Ball.

To tell you the truth, it's a whole lot easier for me to sense my Head than my 'Point-Between-the-Shoulders.' But maybe that's just me.

:)

Doin' What Comes Natur'ly?

Quote:

Originally Posted by birdie_man

Are they too lazy to twist tho? Or are they untrained? I can't pivot properly left handed no matter how much effort I put into it. (even on lazy days)

I absolutely agree that most golfers fail to Pivot properly because they are either untrained or improperly trained.