Question about plane

[O.B.Left]

The question to be answered is WHEN do you define what plane you are on when the REAL business occurs? Homer said you could clown the backstroke . . . . so you can certainly be "on-plane" in the backstroke right. . . but the IMPERATIVE is the line of compression . . . So when would you say that the plane is defined on the downstroke?

This makes good sense.

I'd add that being "on plane" in the backstroke includes any plane shifts. Making Plane Line adherence a constant and giving the golfer some latitude around the fixed , non shifting plane angle. Plane Line compliance being our prime concern.

Im thinking Plane Shifts are hazardous, for sure but;
-you can shift Plane Angles and still be "on Plane". Its the same plane its just shifted. The club still travels the same plane but the angle has shifted. Dang, I wish the 1-L-18 animation would resurface. Imagine yourself in Homers garage set up on his plane board. As you take the club back along the elbow plane Homer begins to tilt the top end of the plane board up to your TSP or whatever, then on the down swing he tilts it down as you approach the Elbow Plane again. Double Shift with your club sliding up and down the single sheet of flat plastic. One end of the club pointing at Plane Line , Base Line at all times.
-one shift is less hazardous than two , two better than three etc
-plane line compliance is the prime concern
-the plane angle through impact had best match the clubs lie angle and ideally the elbow plane for mechanical and geometric advantage. (RFFW and Tracing etc)

Look at this guy here. He is riding Homers plane with a Double Shift. Plane line compliance.

http://www.lynnblakegolf.com/forum/a...d=125440863 6

[Loren]

What's missing thus far is Impact Fix.

For ndwolfe who is not TGM conversant, Impact Fix is a dress rehearsal for Impact done between Preliminary Address where you're getting ready for the shot (club selection, wind analysis, trajectory, target, practice swing), and Address with its adjustments for where you intend to start up including any waggles and forward press, usually with hands mid-body.

Key to this discussion is the right forearm on-plane with the shaft at impact. That's where we intend to return everything at the moment of truth.

Impact Fix sees the body in relatively open conditions, although the hands are still mid-body as the mid-body has shifted from where it would be at standard Address, the head height is lower, the right shoulder is lower for impact, precise amount of impact knee bend determined and impact foot loading. The grip is taken here with the clubshaft at an angle according to its lie angle and built-in clubshaft forward lean, the clubface open, square or closed according to planned hinge action to be used, trajectory and length of shot, the left wrist flat, level and vertical, the right wrist bent, level and vertical and extensor action is applied. Thus, the Flying Wedges are assembled, which is Daryl's Power Package Structure. It is this structure we want to recreate into impact reqardless of plane angle shifts, and to where the right forearm must return. The Machine is designed to do precisely that. Think full-body participation Forward Press.

Depending on how far you stand from the ball, the amount of waist bend and knee bend, the degrees of openness of the hips and shoulders, acquired axis tilt and right shoulder height at impact, it's possible to have everything lined up with the turned shoulder plane and take it away and return it precisely there with zero plane shift. The right forearm can not get on plane until the elbow does, but that does not dictate swinging on an elbow plane. It's the hands that go up and down the plane on their delivery path, and the right forearm is thrown or driven out into impact.

Hitters especially prefer to use this position as Address for startup.
Swingers adjust back to mid-body address, squaring everything except the clubface, but it's advantageous to retain head height determined at Impact Fix, and right knee bend. The hands typically are lower but need not be, the left wrist has gone bent with the right wrist now flat. From there the Power Package has to be re-assembled in the backswing, but the swinger can drag it away from here better and the #3 pressure point is in a better location for tracing the plane line (proximal phalanx of the right index finger).
Either pattern uses Right Forearm Takeaway tracing the delivery line. Hitters carry it away, swingers drag it away.

The impact fix amount of right wrist bend, and the flat left wrist will be correctly re-created with a swivel (turn) of the left wrist onto plane somewhere in the backswing with the swinger's standard wrist action. The Flying Wedges are thus assembled and it is that fixed amount of right wrist bend that should be maintained into the impact area.

Quickly posting without much editing, a memory dump, getting ready to duck the bullets, probably in re "everything lined up on the TSP".
Hope ndwolfe gets something out of it if he's still around after all this. And hope there's nothing too misleading in here for him. There are still a few terms needing definition, Level for instance, the Flying Wedges, hinge action, delivery line. How much precision do you want? All that's possible.

[12 piece bucket]

This makes good sense.

I'd add that being "on plane" in the backstroke includes any plane shifts. Making Plane Line adherence a constant and giving the golfer some latitude around the fixed , non shifting plane angle. Plane Line compliance being our prime concern.

Im thinking Plane Shifts are hazardous, for sure but;
-you can shift Plane Angles and still be "on Plane". Its the same plane its just shifted. The club still travels the same plane but the angle has shifted. Dang, I wish the 1-L-18 animation would resurface. Imagine yourself in Homers garage set up on his plane board. As you take the club back along the elbow plane Homer begins to tilt the top end of the plane board up to your TSP or whatever, then on the down swing he tilts it down as you approach the Elbow Plane again. Double Shift with your club sliding up and down the single sheet of flat plastic. One end of the club pointing at Plane Line , Base Line at all times.
-one shift is less hazardous than two , two better than three etc
-plane line compliance is the prime concern
-the plane angle through impact had best match the clubs lie angle and ideally the elbow plane for mechanical and geometric advantage. (RFFW and Tracing etc)

Look at this guy here. He is riding Homers plane with a Double Shift. Plane line compliance.

http://www.lynnblakegolf.com/forum/a...d=125440863 6

BEAUTIFUL . . . look at how the right arm and the right shoulder move . . . no bobbing . . . awesome . . . can you put up the next two frames?

I'm going to challenge you on that plane line compliance being of primary importance though . . . disruption in the #3 angle/plane angle shifting CAN have HUGE implications on the face vector AND the rate at which the face rotates about the sweetspot . . .





See anything here that would cause that big ole shift out to the right?

[Loren]

The blue line is a little too high for Turned Shoulder Plane angle.
Usually it's drawn up through the armpit at address. (10-6-B)
The Standard (flat) backstroke shoulder turn component is meant to take it back to that line and then down it.
He's not far under it.
You have it on the Squared shoulder turn, a much steeper plane. (10-6-C)
Too much knees action, weight rolled to outside of left foot.
"Plant the left heel." Harvey Pennick, paraphrased.

[12 piece bucket]

The blue line is a little too high for Turned Shoulder Plane angle.
Usually it's drawn up through the armpit at address. (10-6-B)
The Standard (flat) backstroke shoulder turn component is meant to take it back to that line.
He's not far under it.
You have it at the Squared shoulder turn line, a much steeper plane. (10-6-C)
Hips too active, weight rolled to outside of left foot, loss of "left anchor", release could be delayed some more.

I don't necessarily disagree with your analysis of the line drawing . . . but I didn't draw the lines. Somebody else did . . . they were just on there from the site I pulled the pic from.

I do have a different take on the hips though . . . . look at the head . . . are the hips going forward or is the head backing up?

compare Hogan/Yoda to Graham. . . look at the tilt in the shoulders . . . Look at the difference in the straightness of the right knee . . . If you drew a plumb line from each players nose where would it meet the ground relative to the feet?

[Daryl]

The question to be answered is WHEN do you define what plane you are on when the REAL business occurs? Homer said you could clown the backstroke . . . . so you can certainly be "on-plane" in the backstroke right. . . but the IMPERATIVE is the line of compression . . . So when would you say that the plane is defined on the downstroke?

The Angle of the Clubshaft is the Plane. I think that plane angle is not important if you don't use the same angle during the release as at impact (unless you're using a Flip Release). Being able to generate clubhead speed and direct the clubhead simultaneously means you need Plane/Clubshaft Control.

[Daryl]

Nice, 4.5 Yodas (Ill cut one in half). Uh oh here comes Kanye again. "Yo Daryl, Im happy for ya'll an Imna let you finish , but Beyonce had the best 7-3 post of ALL TIME"...........

Anyways:
-by fixed I meant non shifting.

Oh.

-what is a "rigid" power package? Is this your vapidity or mine? Surely the right elbow bends, it being the stuff (or part of the stuff) of the "magic of the right forearm". But you make an interesting point about elbow straightening in Downstroke and shifts to lower planes.

From the Top, don't unbend the Right Elbow until release.

-re 7-3. Where is the "4:30 line"? This is way off topic I know. I like the logic and geometry of the Angle of Approach as written, "determined by ball position" etc. Maybe I dont understand Lag's geometry, though I do like his writing and his actual swing when playing as opposed to practicing. The Alt Target Line is estimated, averaged out to 11 degrees on Chuck's thing amajig aid. 4;30, I reckon to be 45 degrees no? Surely thats off plane, or cross line at best. I digress.

During Delivery when the Butt End of the Club points to the Inside-aft quadrant of the Ball. The Clockface is on the ground. 9:00 O'clock is the Target.

-Is it really possible to point the butt end of the club at the turned shoulder position with every club in the bag? I will have to do some experimenting. This would make a non shifting swing possible through the entire bag. A "well I begottahel" moment.

Yes..............

[12 piece bucket]

The Angle of the Clubshaft is the Plane. I think that plane angle is not important if you don't use the same angle during the release as at impact (unless you're using a Flip Release). Being able to generate clubhead speed and direct the clubhead simultaneously means you need Plane/Clubshaft Control.

Please clarify . . . not sure I'm following you . . .

The point I'm trying to make is most people aim differently when they have a side hill lie . . . ball below feet=face vector to the right+steeper clubshaft . . . also the steeper the shaft means less #3 angle which equates to more motion of the clubface for a given amount of roll. Vice versy for a ball above your feet you get a pull vector from the face and a slower rate of rotation of the face . . . . when you shift the plane angle thru the ball (release or whatever point you want to define the downstroke plane) you have created a side hill lie DYNAMICALLY.

Look at Hogan's face, clubshaft control and right arm compared to Graham in Frame 4


Face still hasn't swiveled to the plane . . .

[Loren]

Angled versus horizontal hinge action.
Hogan's probably punching it with the right arm. Default angle hinge.
Or in his mind "holding it off". Hands too low will do that also.
Graham's swinging, default horizontal hinge caused by CF.
The face won't swivel onto plane until the clubhead overtakes the hands, with a left forearm swivel into finish.
Hogan held it off. He never did swivel onto plane in finish (in this photo sequence), typical of a hitting stroke.

Hogan and Yoda look great. Heads centered, good knee and hip actions. Neither are rolling to the outside of the left foot. Yoda's squatted more but those two photos seem to be from different swings, as he's on the practice grounds and the background has changed. Not even sure about the same camera location. We know he pushes that left knee out there but seemingly not too far, accepting the weight of the required parallel slide motion. (Tomasello did the parallel slide too, b-t-w, barely perceptible at speed but evident in slow-motion, and more than it looks. Several inches. He preferred to focus on the right arm and right shoulder and let the hips react, but keep 'em out of the way.)
I'd take Yoda's hitting stroke any day now if someone would just come along and transplant it.

Graham's hips haven't moved too far but his knees have, the head's dropping down and back, nowhere near the center of the stance, too much axis tilt, hips too open at impact, hands haven't caught up, shoulders could have traveled farther and release could have been delayed more. His "line of sight to the ball" got altered significantly. And it looks like he "stood up", almost like a S&T move.
Looks a lot like Mike Austin's "Flammer" photo sequence. Said he thinks "Try to lift the right heel." Hmmph. Not advisable.

[Loren]

Parallel to the angle of the right forearm at impact fix transplanted to the aft-inner quadrant of the ball aiming point, a few dimples this side and aft, from the Top, PP#3. It's not all that precise either. Experimental for hitters. A "feel" thing, and it's amazing what feel can do for you if you let it.
Why the Angle of Approach? "I dunno. Satisfies the urge to 'steer', I guess." HK according to YodasLuke, hitters only.
That angle adjusts for ball placement, shaft length and lean.
The aiming point of the hands' location at impact fix is a fallback procedure (6-E-2). Just be sure the thrust is Down and Out to get there.

Weight shift motion parallel to that delivery line for cross-line procedures. Parallel to the plane line for in-line procedures.